Ritual Slaughter

As a socialist I beleive in equality and religious freedom. However, like the vast majority of others on the left I am also a big supporter of animal rights. The two clash on the grounds of ritual slaughter such as kosher and halal which does inflict suffering on animals.

Whilst the majority of left wing parties and movements are opposed to animal cruelty, they still would allow forms of religious slaughter that inflicts suffering on the animal.

Personally I believe all forms of ritual slaughter that involve suffering to animals should be banned. Negotiations could be opened with religious authorities to find humane methods of slaughter that are acceptable to particular faiths and that do not involve pain and suffering to the animal. I know this would bring conflict with certain religous groups, but if we are to to promote a truely equal society animal cruelty should not have religion as a barrier or a defence for what simply is barbarity.

Agreed 100%. Any true "God" does not allow for the barbaric killing of animals (and same goes for destruction of the environment). For years now I have been a huge opponent of ritual slaughter. I simply would not jump behind a movement 100% unless they addressed the issues of animal rights and the environment.

If the religious community isn't willing to comply with the humane guidelines, burn it down as far as I am concerned.

In my ideal society all slaughter and meat industry is abolished, but that simply isn't practical (at least in the near future).

I can't agree with this sorry
We butcher animals in barbaric ways already inflicting what could easily be considered mass genocide on a daily basis. How is this any different than ritual sacrifice to gods?

To argue that any god would not allow ritual sacrifice is just silly to say when many of our ancestor's religions did this very practice. Also how can anyone say what a "true" god would do? The god of Islam/Judaism/Christianity inflicted plenty of horrific acts which were justified in scriptures because of the sins of humanity. So the argument that a god wouldn't allow such practices, or would allow suffering is moot.

I'm indifferent to ritual sacrifice though honestly, my focus is on the lives of humans. The number of ritual sacrifices is nowhere near as widespread as the acts committed by corporations against animals or even the acts by animal owners against their pets.

As for the meat industry though, I would much rather it be in the hands of the workers and continue to exist. You can be a vegan if you like, I know I damn sure won't give up eating animals, and I doubt most people would be willing to do it either.

Now if you don't mind I think I'll fry some chicken legs since I am a evil animal killer

Balkan Beast wrote:We butcher animals in barbaric ways already inflicting what could easily be considered mass genocide on a daily basis. How is this any different than ritual sacrifice to gods?

Well to start, how can the two even be compared? Not that I condone ritual sacrifice, but the mass slaughter and mistreatment of animals inside industrial farms is in no way comparable to a simple ritual sacrifice.

To argue that any god would not allow ritual sacrifice is just silly to say when many of our ancestor's religions did this very practice.

True, there were instances of many pagan sacrifices of animals. That doesn't automatically justify a replication of that behavior. It is worthwhile to mention, however, that meat eating primarily came about with the rise of hunter-gatherer societies when tribes could not settle and grow food. Many Indo-European pagans would keep cattle, but the slaughter of a cow was seen as absolute sin whether in ancient India or in ancient Europe. Also worthwhile to point out that our pagan ancestors lived in much greater harmony with animals and nature than did their Abrahamic successors.

Also how can anyone say what a "true" god would do?

The god of Islam/Judaism/Christianity inflicted plenty of horrific acts which were justified in scriptures because of the sins of humanity. So the argument that a god wouldn't allow such practices, or would allow suffering is moot.

As Thomas Paine said... "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man".

I'm indifferent to ritual sacrifice though honestly, my focus is on the lives of humans.

Why only care about humans? There is a whole conscious universe out there breathing with life. All of it deserves respect. Your planet is your home, the animals your neighbors in which you share it. It usually isn't very polite to lock up your neighbor and butcher him for food. Nor is it polite to lock up your neighbor's wife and use a cattle prod to extract milk from her. As developed and intelligent human beings we should be able to see past our own noses as a race and species.

The number of ritual sacrifices is nowhere near as widespread as the acts committed by corporations against animals or even the acts by animal owners against their pets.

Just because they are not as widespread, does not mean it isn't a problem. Kosher and Halal slaughter is an absolutely brutal process in which the animal is slowly killed over time. No humane society should allow for that. Furthermore, it is also possible to condemn animal abuse committed by agricultural corporations as well as ritual slaughter.

As for the meat industry though, I would much rather it be in the hands of the workers and continue to exist. You can be a vegan if you like, I know I damn sure won't give up eating animals, and I doubt most people would be willing to do it either.

We shall see, nobody can tell the future.

Now if you don't mind I think I'll fry some chicken legs since I am a evil animal killer

Very nice troll line here at the end. What else can I say but enjoy your hormone pumped, genetically modified, physically abused chicken that has probably wallowed in its own feces for the majority of its life. Bloods on your hands, not mine.

Balkan Beast wrote:I can't agree with this sorry
We butcher animals in barbaric ways already inflicting what could easily be considered mass genocide on a daily basis. How is this any different than ritual sacrifice to gods?

So, because something out of our control is occurring means we cannot express opposition to something like ritual sacrifice?

The meat industry is disgusting. I am opposed to it as it exists today, so I don't see where you are going with this. Pantheon Rising expressed the same distaste, and I am sure the OP feels the same.

To argue that any god would not allow ritual sacrifice is just silly to say when many of our ancestor's religions did this very practice. Also how can anyone say what a "true" god would do? The god of Islam/Judaism/Christianity inflicted plenty of horrific acts which were justified in scriptures because of the sins of humanity. So the argument that a god wouldn't allow such practices, or would allow suffering is moot.\

Yes, and those ancestors were silly. Once again, what is your point? It is not a "moot" argument because I (do not want to speak for the other posters) reject these religions and their supposed gods.

I'm indifferent to ritual sacrifice though honestly, my focus is on the lives of humans. The number of ritual sacrifices is nowhere near as widespread as the acts committed by corporations against animals or even the acts by animal owners against their pets.

I do not understand how one could be indifferent. Though the number of these sacrifices may be lower, it is still fruit of the same tree.

As for the meat industry though, I would much rather it be in the hands of the workers and continue to exist. You can be a vegan if you like, I know I damn sure won't give up eating animals, and I doubt most people would be willing to do it either.

I have no problem with continuing its existence, but there must be major changes made to the industry, that is a given. I don't think just moving it into the hands of the workers will solve this problem. Regulations must be put in place.

Now if you don't mind I think I'll fry some chicken legs since I am a evil animal killer

Enjoy.

Altair wrote:So, because something out of our control is occurring means we cannot express opposition to something like ritual sacrifice?

You can express your opposition, the same way I am expressing my opposition to outlawing the practice. I am offering an opposing view, or would you rather us agree on everything? This forum is supposed to be to discuss our different views in such topics.
I am presenting my own, the same way you three are presenting your oppositon to the matter.

The meat industry is disgusting. I am opposed to it as it exists today, so I don't see where you are going with this. Pantheon Rising expressed the same distaste, and I am sure the OP feels the same.

And that is your view, I am not opposed to it. Sure the animals could certainly be treated better than they currently are, but the end result should be the same. A meal for a member of the proletariate.
If you want to be vegans, that's fine but just because you don't like meat shouldn't mean that we all have to follow the same line.

Yes, and those ancestors were silly. Once again, what is your point? It is not a "moot" argument because I (do not want to speak for the other posters) reject these religions and their supposed gods.

Now let's insult our ancestors...

It is as silly as opposing this, you can reject those religions and keep your athiesm.
Just because you don't support the religions doesn't mean they should be outlawed.
You are just supporting removing one form of oppression and implementing others.

I do not understand how one could be indifferent. Though the number of these sacrifices may be lower, it is still fruit of the same tree.

It's quite easy actually. I go with the current belief, let people practice their religion as long as it does not harm other people.
I am simply stating that I am not opposed to it, although I do not commit animal sacrifices.
If any reform is to be done on them, it should be to ease the suffering of the animal in the process.

I have no problem with continuing its existence, but there must be major changes made to the industry, that is a given. I don't think just moving it into the hands of the workers will solve this problem. Regulations must be put in place.

Indeed, the same goes with all industries.

Pantheon Rising wrote:Well to start, how can the two even be compared? Not that I condone ritual sacrifice, but the mass slaughter and mistreatment of animals inside industrial farms is in no way comparable to a simple ritual sacrifice.

How? The end result is the same, one just provides benefits to people that can actually be seen, whereas the ritual sacrifices provide spiritual benefits to those whom are involved(It is disputable whether they are real or not seeing as we all have different views on religion).

That doesn't automatically justify a replication of that behavior. It is worthwhile to mention, however, that meat eating primarily came about with the rise of hunter-gatherer societies when tribes could not settle and grow food. Many Indo-European pagans would keep cattle, but the slaughter of a cow was seen as absolute sin whether in ancient India or in ancient Europe. Also worthwhile to point out that our pagan ancestors lived in much greater harmony with animals and nature than did their Abrahamic successors.

No, it doesn't justify it but the same goes for the opposing view to ritual sacrifice.
I know little about the rest of your information though, I don't claim to be an expert so I will take your word.
I have no doubt though that the last sentence would be true.

As Thomas Paine said... "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man".

Man is already cruel, we are the crulest most sadistic animal on the planet.
Unlike our other counterparts in the animal kingdom, we have a variety of ways that we can be cruel though without using physical force.

Why only care about humans? There is a whole conscious universe out there breathing with life. All of it deserves respect. Your planet is your home, the animals your neighbors in which you share it. It usually isn't very polite to lock up your neighbor and butcher him for food. Nor is it polite to lock up your neighbor's wife and use a cattle prod to extract milk from her. As developed and intelligent human beings we should be able to see past our own noses as a race and species.

I'll agree to disagree

Just because they are not as widespread, does not mean it isn't a problem. Kosher and Halal slaughter is an absolutely brutal process in which the animal is slowly killed over time. No humane society should allow for that. Furthermore, it is also possible to condemn animal abuse committed by agricultural corporations as well as ritual slaughter.

I don't view ritual sacrifice as a problem regardless.
I don't know much about Kosher/Halal slaughter so I'll have to get back to you on that.
As I said to altair though, if ritual sacrifices are permitted they should be relatively painless for the animal.

We shall see, nobody can tell the future.

True. Maybe the current stance on eating animals will change in the future.

Very nice troll line here at the end. What else can I say but enjoy your hormone pumped, genetically modified, physically abused chicken that has probably wallowed in its own feces for the majority of its life. Bloods on your hands, not mine.

It could've been better, I should use try some different spices.

Balkan Beast wrote:You can express your opposition, the same way I am expressing my opposition to outlawing the practice. I am offering an opposing view, or would you rather us agree on everything? This forum is supposed to be to discuss our different views in such topics.
I am presenting my own, the same way you three are presenting your oppositon to the matter.

You are turning this into something it is not, but that is neither here nor there, I suppose. There is a difference between expressing one's opinion and countering someone's argumentum ad populum (a fallacious argument), which is what I was doing.

And that is your view, I am not opposed to it. Sure the animals could certainly be treated better than they currently are, but the end result should be the same. A meal for a member of the proletariate.

Yes.

If you want to be vegans, that's fine but just because you don't like meat shouldn't mean that we all have to follow the same line.

No one has said any differently.

Now let's insult our ancestors...
It is as silly as opposing this, you can reject those religions and keep your athiesm.
Just because you don't support the religions doesn't mean they should be outlawed.
You are just supporting removing one form of oppression and implementing others.

I am not a stickler for respecting people just because they happened to come before me. I respect them for their actions, not for simply being born before I was. If I happen to disagree with their actions, then I am justified in "insulting" them, as you have put it.

I am not in favour of outlawing these religious practices completely. As long as the animal is not made to suffer and is utilized to its fullest potential after death, I see no issue.

It's quite easy actually. I go with the current belief, let people practice their religion as long as it does not harm other people.
I am simply stating that I am not opposed to it, although I do not commit animal sacrifices.

I am of the opinion that animals deserve to be treated with dignity. Just because a religion spares humans while allowing animals to suffer does not make it right in any way, shape, or form. It is completely chauvinistic to believe that animals should be allowed to suffer simply because we have a monopoly over the whole of them -- that is truly the only 'justification' that there is, really, and it is completely ridiculous.

If any reform is to be done on them, it should be to ease the suffering of the animal in the process.

Yes.

Balkan Beast wrote:How? The end result is the same, one just provides benefits to people that can actually be seen, whereas the ritual sacrifices provide spiritual benefits to those whom are involved(It is disputable whether they are real or not seeing as we all have different views on religion).

Are you honestly that thick? Think for a second. What is worse... an industrial farm full of babies pumped full of hormones, packed closely together, malnourished and not kept clean and then barbarically slaughtered or a quick simple ritual sacrifice of a baby? You honestly can not see which one is worse?

Man is already cruel, we are the crulest most sadistic animal on the planet.
Unlike our other counterparts in the animal kingdom, we have a variety of ways that we can be cruel though without using physical force.

Only because you and those who are also "cruel" are making the conscious decision to be so. There isn't some guiding hand that is sitting somewhere programming humans. Religions and ideas in the past have risen which have influenced human thought and behavior. A religion and God that teaches God gave man full dominion over animals and nature and which gives man the right to ritually sacrifice them is thus a cruel God, meaning a cruel people will arise.

I'll agree to disagree

So you would lock up your neighbor's wife, force her to give you milk, and perhaps slaughter her kids for some food? Cause it tastes good?

I don't view ritual sacrifice as a problem regardless.
I don't know much about Kosher/Halal slaughter so I'll have to get back to you on that.
As I said to altair though, if ritual sacrifices are permitted they should be relatively painless for the animal.

After he had completed the shechita, we heard the death rattle and gurgle of blood. He ordered everyone who had been holding the calf in position to step backwards, because even after it is dead, the calf kicks and moves. This is called mefarcheses. Also fascinating was the way that steam rose from the neck as the blood was exposed to the cold air.

Pantheon Rising wrote:Are you honestly that thick? Think for a second. What is worse... an industrial farm full of babies pumped full of hormones, packed closely together, malnourished and not kept clean and then barbarically slaughtered or a quick simple ritual sacrifice of a baby? You honestly can not see which one is worse?

Yes because apparently not being against ritual sacrifice must mean I am mentally inferior >.>
To answer your question, worse is a matter of opinion.
Neither is good. I am fairly certain though babies aren't going to be providing much upon being killed(disregarding stem cells). Babies are already murdered anyways on a daily basis via abortion clinics but most of us are perfectly fine with these acts but now hunting, ritual sacrifices, and also eating animals is bad?

I assume next you will ask us to treat all our plants with respect, they are after all all living organisms as well. Should we not use them for anything either?

Only because you and those who are also "cruel" are making the conscious decision to be so. There isn't some guiding hand that is sitting somewhere programming humans. Religions and ideas in the past have risen which have influenced human thought and behavior. A religion and God that teaches God gave man full dominion over animals and nature and which gives man the right to ritually sacrifice them is thus a cruel God, meaning a cruel people will arise.

We are all cruel in some way or form, yourself included. The same way that we all have some degree of selfishness.
I'm just going to disregard this entire section all I see is Atheistic drivel nothing more.

So you would lock up your neighbor's wife, force her to give you milk, and perhaps slaughter her kids for some food? Cause it tastes good?

If my neighbor is a cow, goat, etc. then yes.
What will you say next will I rape the "wife" because pussy is good?
You're sinking low rather quickly.

As for the rest I'm not going to bother responding.



Here I can post shock pictures to?

Again, my view is that the killings are fine as it is attempted to ease the animal's pain in the process, and to make sure that the products of the animal are used. If they have a religious reason for not using them, that is no reason for them to not be used by those who have no qualms against it.

Balkan Beast wrote:Babies are already murdered anyways on a daily basis via abortion clinics but most of us are perfectly fine with these acts but now hunting, ritual sacrifices, and also eating animals is bad?

There is a significant difference: Legal abortions are conducted prior to the development of a fetuses' central nervous system, and many of us support abortions only as a unfortunate last resort—preemptive measures and adoption should always be encouraged so as to minimize the frequency of abortions. Also, abortions aren't being conducted for sport or because we want to gorge ourselves with meat, unlike with the slaughter of animals.

I assume next you will ask us to treat all our plants with respect, they are after all all living organisms as well. Should we not use them for anything either?

Plants aren't sentient beings, so that's a ridiculous analogy.

We are all cruel in some way or form, yourself included. The same way that we all have some degree of selfishness.

That doesn't answer the question of whether or not we ought to behave in such manners. Even if it could be argued that human beings are innately cruel and selfish, only those who illogically endorse variants of the naturalistic fallacy would suggest that such behaviors therefore shouldn't be restrained.

Again, my view is that the killings are fine as it is attempted to ease the animal's pain in the process, and to make sure that the products of the animal are used.

And what of the very act of consuming meat itself? Surely it warrants ethical evaluation.

Balkan Beast wrote:Yes because apparently not being against ritual sacrifice must mean I am mentally inferior >.>

Or just a sadist that seems to lack empathy.

Babies are already murdered anyways on a daily basis via abortion clinics but most of us are perfectly fine with these acts but now hunting, ritual sacrifices, and also eating animals is bad?

You assume I actually support abortion. I am opposed to abortion as well, unless under extreme circumstances such as rape, incest, and high a chance of being mentally or physically disabled. For the same reason I also do not eat meat and do not condone breeding or the farm industry. There is absolutely no point in breathing life into a being specifically so it can come on this planet to suffer.

I assume next you will ask us to treat all our plants with respect, they are after all all living organisms as well. Should we not use them for anything either?

Actually, I do ask you to treat them with respect. It is part of the environment, all living things are breathing with life one way or another. However, as Celtiberian said, plants are not sentient beings so equating picking some plants for a salad with slaughtering a pig or cow is a little ridiculous.

We are all cruel in some way or form, yourself included. The same way that we all have some degree of selfishness.
I'm just going to disregard this entire section all I see is Atheistic drivel nothing more.

I have no qualms about acting cruel towards those who perpetrate the cruelty if that is what you mean. I personally think all ritual slaughterers should be forced to undergo what their victims experienced.

As for it being atheistic drivel, that was a very poor analysis of what I wrote. I am probably the most religious person on this forum.

If my neighbor is a cow, goat, etc. then yes.
What will you say next will I rape the "wife" because pussy is good?
You're sinking low rather quickly.

What is to stop you from raping your neighbor's wife? You've already shown you have no issue initiating a murderous force onto a being which has not perpetrated any harm unto you for no other reason than to satisfy your taste buds.

Here I can post shock pictures to?

You said you did not know much about ritual slaughter, so I posted some pictures of Shechita for you. The picture you posted is absolutely irrelevant.

I completely agree with Pantheon Rising,and believe that animal slaughter needs to be abolished.I am what one may call a vegan-anarchist

Anarcho-Edge wrote:I completely agree with Pantheon Rising,and believe that animal slaughter needs to be abolished.I am what one may call a vegan-anarchist

The shock attempts, slippery slope arguments, and insults are horrible ways of attempting to convince someone of your position if you want to do it honestly. The OP's question is whether or not ritual animal killings are less cruel than other, more common, forms of slaughter. The argument for or against slaughter in general is a different question, as is the method of farming.

I am against factory farming as it is now and go out of my way to not eat certain products and refuse to eat veal. I also refuse to eat animals that are self-aware: whale, dolphin, apes.

The argument that it's a small step to supporting the rape of a woman from eating meat implies a spectrum of violent action, but that is shown to be false when you impose a criteria of some sort that set a standard of moral action. For me that is self-awareness. Granted, a dog is more aware than a spider and I would require more reason to kill a dog as a result.

If I had more money I would buy from local farms that make sure to treat the animals fairly.

Red Aegis wrote:The shock attempts, slippery slope arguments, and insults are horrible ways of attempting to convince someone of your position if you want to do it honestly.

The pictures aren't just posted for shock value. They're posted to show Balkan Beast what an actual ritual slaughter looks like; if you are shocked by them it is only normal.

I am against factory farming as it is now and go out of my way to not eat certain products and refuse to eat veal. I also refuse to eat animals that are self-aware: whale, dolphin, apes.

And where do you draw this completely arbitrary line? Do you eat pork? Pigs are just as aware and intelligent as dogs yet one is food and the other is friend; explain that.

I am not actually bothered by it's subjective nature. Everything is subjective.

Red Aegis wrote:I am not actually bothered by it's subjective nature. Everything is subjective.

It isn't subjective to say that animals are sentient and plants are not.

That's a scientific question. What I was referring to was moral subjectivity.

It annoys me that people are very biased towards things such as halal slaughter. I have seen halal slaughter carried out in far more humane ways than regular slaughter. While I think the whole halal thing is a load of crap, I'd much rather buy my meat from certain halal slaughterers who have a fair amount of respect for their animals in life and death than a supermarket who could be doing god only knows what to them. It's mostly a case of poor representation from what I've seen. Unless this guy is doing something extremely non-halal by giving the animal a somewhat comfortable death, I don't see why halal slaughter is bad:



Compare that to a lot of the non-halal/kosher slaughter videos from Europe and America, then tell me halal slaughter is cruel. And yes, I do understand that most halal meat in western countries is probably any old meat simply sold with the name attached to it, but so is a lot of "free range" meat and whatever other fancy crap we see on the label.

I absolutely disagree that that is humane. How would you feel if I held you on the ground, offered you a couple reassuring words that you can't even understand, and then proceeded to cut open your throat?

I'll respond to this eventually, I just don't have the time to do so until next week probably.

Pantheon Rising wrote:I absolutely disagree that that is humane. How would you feel if I held you on the ground, offered you a couple reassuring words that you can't even understand, and then proceeded to cut open your throat?

All that you have offered is an emotional argument that I mistook for a threat at first. You obviously don't think that killing is correct in the case of food procurement, and would likely consider it murder. There is an argument for that but you must see that you cannot force others to see it the same way. There are many legitimate environmental arguments for vegetarianism but you haven't made them. With your shifting the subject from Halal and Kosher slaughter compared to conventional slaughter to the legitimacy of slaughter all together you have made your argument for the first, intended, comparison less important by your primary use of these emotional pleas in regards to the second.

Red Aegis wrote:All that you have offered is an emotional argument that I mistook for a threat at first. You obviously don't think that killing is correct in the case of food procurement, and would likely consider it murder. There is an argument for that but you must see that you cannot force others to see it the same way. There are many legitimate environmental arguments for vegetarianism but you haven't made them. With your shifting the subject from Halal and Kosher slaughter compared to conventional slaughter to the legitimacy of slaughter all together you have made your argument for the first, intended, comparison less important by your primary use of these emotional pleas in regards to the second.

Well, thanks for analyzing what I write but appealing to the pathos is a perfectly legitimate means of persuading. I haven't shifted the subject one bit if you have been paying attention. I mentioned that I agree with the OP, that if religious communities do not wish to abide by humane guidelines, they should be eradicated. I only made an aside saying that I wished to see all slaughter outlawed which no one even commented on.

Balkan Beast then went on to say that there is nothing wrong with ritual slaughter due to the fact the way animals are already treated in slaughtering facilities today. I then offered a comparison and tried to get him to see the difference, and this is how we got on the topic of slaughter in general.

DSN then offered an informative video on the process of Halal slaughter to which I replied that it isn't humane, no matter how comfortable you try to make the animal, to slaughter it just to feed your face when there is almost unlimited alternatives available. Personally, I support the education of the masses with respects to animal welfare. My opinions on slaughter will not change though. Animals themselves have no representation in any sort of "democratic consensus" about slaughter. Some people will willingly murder a human after it has already been shown to them that the murder of a human is not ethically or rationally correct.

My statement was also not a threat, it was merely trying to get you to imagine yourself as the animal in question, and try to tell me how humane that is. What a fucking joke.

In my opinion this is actually a very humane way to kill the animal as it is meant to be painless and the animal's life is held in sanctity. As compared to the industrial farming where the animal is prodded, hurt, and killed in a very painful manner. The knife of the blade must be medically sharp (ie. if the Shocet cut himself he shouldn't be able to feel it), the knife shouldn't have nicts, if killed right the animal should die in 2 seconds ( not a long drawn out process). The animal isn't considered kosher if hurt in anyway before being slaughtered or sick. This sets a standard on how the animal is to be treated on a Kosher farm. I actually think that this is a better way to slaughter an animal then the current standards set today.