The Gaddaffi Thread

[Pantheon Rising]

I would suggest/politely ask the moderators to move all posts pertaining to Green Libya and Gaddaffi to this thread, perhaps in the hopes that we could keep the discussion about Gaddafi confined to this one - leaving the other thread open for Asaad and Syria.

In this thread we can discuss the revolutionary socialist ideology of Green Libya (Libyan Arab Jamahirya). Jamahiriya was a term coined by Gaddafi meaning "State of the Masses".

Love him or hate him, Gaddaffi devised one of the best solutions to the democracy question while discarding the bourgeois establishments known as "parliaments". For all interested I would highly suggest:

The Green Book

Parts 1-3 can be read at the above URL.



A bit of background on how Gaddaffi came to power. Gaddaffi officially became head of Libya on September 1, 1969, and along with him, the Libyan people the head of their nation. Gaddaffi was a Colonel and led a successful coup d'état against the repressive King Idris. Immediately after, the king was exiled, and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi set up the Libyan Revolutionary Command Council. Much like the French Revolution had the motto Liberté, égalité, fraternité the motto of this new regime was Freedom, socialism, unity.

The Revolutionary Command Council finally began to channel funds into programs that could be beneficial towards the Libyan people. Under King Idris Libya experienced a 25% literacy rate, which spiked to 83% once Gaddaffi turned Libya Green (this is easily verifiable by any quick search through internet archives and boards). Many funds were also channeled into housing, and although homelessness was never completely eradicated in Libya, Gaddaffi himself pledged not even to house his own family until every Libyan was housed.

In addition to this, Gaddaffi, as opposed to King Idris who was merely a puppet of French interests at the time, raised Libya's per capita income by $11,000 dollars making it the fifth richest country in Africa. (In addition to having the highest literacy rate). Gaddaffi made sure all of Libya's oil money was used on his own people and nation first rather than being a puppet to hypocritical western capitalists.

In addition to all of this, Gaddaffi was also a staunch supporter of the PLO and their struggle against the Israeli occupation of the west bank and Gaza Strip.

Now let us look at some other benefits the Libyan people had under Gaddaffi.

-There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

-There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.

-Having a home considered a human right in Libya.

-All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

-Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.

-Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.

-If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.

-If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.

-The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.

-If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.

-A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

-A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.

-40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.

-25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.

-Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.


Libya Will Never See These Again

[Pantheon Rising]

Some Gaddaffi videos:



Very large support for Gaddaffi:



Yet more rally in support of Gaddafi in July 2011.



Libya celebrates Gaddaffi:



Great revolutionary Hugo Chavez supports Gaddaffi:



Gaddaffi wins human rights award:



A woman's opinion on Gaddaffi:



Some pro-Gaddaffi and Green Libya music:

[Pantheon Rising]

Is Gaddaffi comparable to Anarcho-Communist Petr Kropotkin?

Qadhafi’s vision of the Socialist society has been summarised as follows:

“1) The purpose of the Socialist society is the happiness of man which can only be realised through material and spiritual freedom.

2) The material needs of all are to be assured, secure from arbitrary disruption.

3) Inequality of wealth, income and social status should be modest. Wealth in excess of private needs should be public, not private, property.

4) Man should find fulfilment in his work not only in using the income he derives from it”. Peter Kropotkin – the founder of Anarcho-Communism and one of the most respected theoreticians of Anarcho-Syndicalism defined one of the most important human rights – the right of welfare which is “a possibility to live as a human being and bring up children.” “Above bread and above welfare, above collective property we can see a new world coming – a world where we can love each other and satisfy our decent and noble desires for the ideal… where there would not be the rich and the poor… a worker would work at what is better for him, a research worker would make his works without reservations, an artist would not make a profanity of his ideal of beauty in favour of money”.

[Pantheon Rising]

What NTC rats did to Gaddaffi



More rebel atrocities:



Torture by rebel rats in Libya:



Globalization!

[Rev Scare]

Apart from constructing an extensive welfare state and (before serious free-market reforms were initiated) nationalizing vast sections of the economy, which I do not deny to be progressive policies when juxtaposed with unfettered capitalism, how exactly does the economic program Gaddafi followed constitute a genuine form of socialism? Moreover, the vision of participatory democracy described in The Green Book was contradicted by Gaddafi's personal dictatorship and virtually totalitarian state apparatus. Of course, Gaddafi's lack of real commitment to democracy by no means rendered him a reactionary, for he wielded no more power than Lenin, Mao, or Castro, but he was a staunch anti-communist who espoused the "Third International Theory" economic model that in theory was little more than a series of disconnected socialist platitudes (borrowed heavily from Tito's Yugoslavia) and in practice proved to be state driven capitalism that hinged overwhelmingly upon oil production.

It is also patently absurd to compare Gaddafism to anarchist communism.

[Red Aegis]

The Revolutionary Command Council finally began to channel funds into programs that could be beneficial towards the Libyan people. Under King Idris Libya experienced a 25% literacy rate, which spiked to 83% once Gaddaffi turned Libya Green (this is easily verifiable by any quick search through internet archives and boards). Many funds were also channeled into housing, and although homelessness was never completely eradicated in Libya, Gaddaffi himself pledged not even to house his own family until every Libyan was housed.

So he made a promise to keep his family homeless and then did not do so? The man lived like a king: http://www.aljazeera.com/video/africa/2011/02/20112276522858202.html

In addition to this, Gaddaffi, as opposed to King Idris who was merely a puppet of French interests at the time, raised Libya's per capita income by $11,000 dollars making it the fifth richest country in Africa. (In addition to having the highest literacy rate). Gaddaffi made sure all of Libya's oil money was used on his own people and nation first rather than being a puppet to hypocritical western capitalists.

These are good things, but they don't make him a socialist or pro-democracy.

In addition to all of this, Gaddaffi was also a staunch supporter of the PLO and their struggle against the Israeli occupation of the west bank and Gaza Strip.

This is also a good thing.

Now let us look at some other benefits the Libyan people had under Gaddaffi.

-There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

-There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.

-Having a home considered a human right in Libya.

-All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

-Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.

-Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.

-If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.

-If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.

-The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.

-If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.

-A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

-A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.

-40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.

-25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.

-Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

While Ghaddaffi was not horrible in everything, he was no saint. I found some web pages that address these myths not all are wrong or even entirely wrong but as a whole, they are ridiculous.

http://feb17.info/news/myths-of-the-gaddafi-regime-explained/

http://painfultruths.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/10/gaddafis-pimps-still-peddling-his-lies.html

This one is the best, read the whole thing. http://centerforworldconflictandpeace.blogspot.com/2011/10/paradise-under-qaddafi.html

I couldn't find the source of the myths but read that it was an e-mail that went viral.

All the pro-Ghadaffi posts were just repeating these points, verbatim. I see no reason to believe them.

[Pantheon Rising]

So he made a promise to keep his family homeless and then did not do so? The man lived like a king:

I see a two person sized jacuzzi and a pool. The rest is all a bomb shelter. I guess the man is a criminal for having a bomb shelter.

While Ghaddaffi was not horrible in everything, he was no saint. I found some web pages that address these myths not all are wrong or even entirely wrong but as a whole, they are ridiculous

This one is the best, read the whole thing. http://centerforworldconflictandpeace.blogspot.com/2011/10/paradise-under-qaddafi.html

I couldn't find the source of the myths but read that it was an e-mail that went viral.

While he did show a couple of the points were exaggerated by providing statistics showing at least 40% of Libyans paid electric bills, that is still greater than the 100% that pay them in many other places. There was many he simply could not debunk and many he could not find information on. It is a shame we do not have a wide array of Libyans to survey to find out what the Green Democracy was really like.

Though, on videos, I never saw more than 500 rebels rallying together at any given point whereas at Gaddaffi rallies you could see thousands and millions were reported.

[Red Aegis]

Ok so you are not convinced by what I posted. Now you try to convince me. What makes those facts about Ghaddaffi and his regime true? Also, prove that there weren't more rebels.

[Pantheon Rising]

Ok so you are not convinced by what I posted. Now you try to convince me. What makes those facts about Ghaddaffi and his regime true? Also, prove that there weren't more rebels.

Obviously there was more than 500. I said I never saw more than about 500 at the same time at any rally. We have to use common sense when searching for the truth and not just believe in something because we are idealists fantasizing about a utopia. Both sides have been laid out, and even the opposition conceded to the fact that many of Gaddaffi's programs and actions were true. Also I find it funny that the article seemed to rail against Gaddaffi for not allowing private ownership. Why do all the new ager socialists have more in common with bourgeois States? Hmmm.

I don't know about you, but I am much more likely to side with Gaddaffi, a brilliant theorist regardless if all of his ideas were laid out, and a man who had support from renowned Socialist leaders like Hugo Chavez rather than a bunch of clerical rebels who torture and hang innocent Gaddaffi supporters backed by NATO capitalist bourgeois interests.

[Red Aegis]

Ahmadinejad also supports Chavez, so your point is pretty mute.

Common sense has no place in trying to understand the world scientifically.

Were you implying that I'm a "new ager" socialist or were you saying that those sources were not valid? If the first, you never even defined the term. If the second, you have yet to show any evidence other than hearsay.

[Pantheon Rising]

Ahmadinejad also supports Chavez, so your point is pretty mute.

What has that got to do with Gaddaffi? Ahmadinejad supports Chavez so Chavez supporting Gaddaffi means nothing?

Common sense has no place in trying to understand the world scientifically.

What exactly are you trying to analyze scientifically?

Were you implying that I'm a "new ager" socialist or were you saying that those sources were not valid? If the first, you never even defined the term. If the second, you have yet to show any evidence other than hearsay.

I was implying you were a "new ager" who feels that everything that isn't a perfect vision of your utopia is ebul and fazchsist. Men like Gaddaffi and Chavez, as well as many historical socialists, have 10x the experience of trying to build socialism dealing with actual realities and material conditions than you - AND me for that fact.

I am not saying the source isn't valid, only that it was from a very bourgeois perspective, because it implies that Gaddaffi's outlaw of private property was oppressive.

[Red Aegis]

What has that got to do with Gaddaffi? Ahmadinejad supports Chavez so Chavez supporting Gaddaffi means nothing?

I'm using that as an example of how one person can endorse another without agreeing with their style of government or ideological congruity. I'm assuming that you already reject the Iranian government, though I may be wrong.

What exactly are you trying to analyze scientifically?

You're right, I did misspeak there. What I should have said is to analyze logically. Common sense is merely the set of pre-dispositions that are ingrained in us by the society that we were raised in. It is merely the nicer name for the logical fallacy of argument from popularity.

I was implying you were a "new ager" who feels that everything that isn't a perfect vision of your utopia is ebul and fazchsist. Men like Gaddaffi and Chavez, as well as many historical socialists, have 10x the experience of trying to build socialism dealing with actual realities and material conditions than you - AND me for that fact.

When did I call Ghaddaffi fascist? Anyway, I reject ideologies that I do not agree with, if this confuses you then I don't know what to say. As for your assuming that I think the same of Chavez and Ghaddaffi, that's ridiculous and you are putting words in my mouth. You still have yet to prove that Ghaddaffi was attempting to build socialism at all. All that you have given as evidence is some chain e-mail that went viral.

I am not saying the source isn't valid, only that it was from a very bourgeois perspective, because it implies that Gaddaffi's outlaw of private property was oppressive.

Your point is mute, regardless of the slant. I gave evidence as to the fallacious and un-evidenced nature of that chain-mail as exposed it's slant. The subject at hand is the evidence for Ghaddaffi being a socialistic leader. I do not see much other than a book he wrote and hearsay.

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