English Defence League

What are our thoughts on the EDL? I think that they aren't a very well formed group of people who present themselves terribly with poor expression and some illogical arguments, but a big problem for them is that they're mowed down and called racist whenever they bring up something that could become a good conversation. Their biggest problem in actually making themselves heard is probably the number of supporters who are into kicking brown people and voting for the BNP.

I'd say that they have some points, but they're assholes in most ways. They aren't leftists and shouldn't be viewed as such. If we associated ourselves with them or their thinking it would look bad on us.

Of course they aren't. Most people throw the far right label on them, so I find it hard to imagine how anyone could call them left-wing. Then again, the general populations' conceptions of left and right are hilarious (although often true, sadly).

The EDL are a bunch of xenophobic, largely racist and frightened white boys who read the sun and panic that the moo-slims are taking over. They have the basic old nationalist attitude but have traded the Jews and blacks for what they call pakis and immigrants.

They recruit from large pools of white unemployment and lumpen communities, which is rather ironic as you get some bloke who has never worked a day in his life going:

"they aint done narfink for this bloody country, come here for our benefits"

My dad used to work at Colgate, He was made redundant and the factory shipped off to Poland, these morons are the kind of people ho would blame the poor polish workers, god forbid they blame the rich white Colgate owners for moving their factory to Poland to make super profits.

I think most of the crowd at an EDL demo just want something to do for the day, it is hardly a movement based on a deep and thorough analysis of society is it

SalfordAnarchist

Red Aegis wrote:I'd say that they have some points, but they're assholes in most ways. They aren't leftists and shouldn't be viewed as such. If we associated ourselves with them or their thinking it would look bad on us.

I think they have no points at all mate, how is radical Islam a top priority to fight?

At a time when Muslims are under attack all around the world, do we need to get on the conservative Muslim hating bandwagon or even employ the same frightened rhetoric on the subject?

It is insignificant, capitalism kills over 20 thousand people a day from starvation and diarrhoeal problems and the flu alone. State terror has killed millions in the last couple of years, Islam is in no way a threat to me and you, scape goating and painting a bogeyman out of it is ridiculous, is radical fundamentalism Islam horrible? .. yes, is it a threat to the world... no lol

SalfordAnarchist

SalfordAnarchist wrote: I think they have no points at all mate, how is radical Islam a top priority to fight?

At a time when Muslims are under attack all around the world, do we need to get on the conservative Muslim hating bandwagon or even employ the same frightened rhetoric on the subject?

It is insignificant, capitalism kills over 20 thousand people a day from starvation and diarrhoeal problems and the flu alone. State terror has killed millions in the last couple of years, Islam is in no way a threat to me and you, scape goating and painting a bogeyman out of it is ridiculous, is radical fundamentalism Islam horrible? .. yes, is it a threat to the world... no lol

They do have a point in that increases in the labor force lower pressure to increase wages. You can't deny that.

They also have a point in that muslim fundamentalism isn't something that should be welcomed. Sharia Law should be opposed, especially among an immigrant population in an area where a government has already been established. This does not mean; however, that religious freedom should be curtailed more than necessary. The members of the EDL that harass normal, decent muslims are in the wrong. If they limited their harassment to the members of the muslim community to those who called for the death of the dutch cartoonist that would be fine in my opinion. You are painting them all in the same light and using a caricature of the british version of the redneck to downplay the legitimate sentiments of a section of the working class. If there were a stronger movement to getting the message of what is actually happening then some of the members of that more reasonable section of the EDL may change their leanings towards Capitalism.

Wow, did you just argue against Sharia law in favour of the British Government?

How about we realise both are oppressive and don't make out Islam is a big threat to society, it is not, the only reason it even exists in its radical jihadi form is because white rich people got the western states to finance them against the state capitalist USSR and its satellite states.

You are sounding very populist here, why choose out of all the things in the world, the white crusade to fight some imaginary creeping Sharia law in Britain?

Why would you be against immigration because it lowers pay due to higher cheaper competition, how about oppose wage labour, not fight immigration?

The EDL openly attacked the anti capitalist wing of occupy, support imperialist occupation and murder and are about as lumpen and bigoted as any group going.

SalfordAnarchist wrote:Wow, did you just argue against Sharia law in favour of the British Government?

How about we realise both are oppressive and don't make out Islam is a big threat to society, it is not, the only reason it even exists in its radical jihadi form is because white rich people got the western states to finance them against the state capitalist USSR and its satellite states.

I know the history behind the rise of Wahabi Islam, but it makes little difference how it became the way it is for the purpose of this discussion. What does matter is that parliamentary democracy is less reactionary than Sharia Law and that people are right to oppose Sharia Law because of that. I would prefer it if they added resisting bourgeois government as well but that's not the issue for this part of the conversation. I wouldn't want religious tribunals that are based off of rules I find against my morality to a large degree. I would also prefer it if I didn't have to live under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, but that doesn't mean that I can't speak out against something equally bad or worse.

I don't appreciate your indication that since I don't want fundamentalist rule that I enjoy Capitalist social relations.

You are sounding very populist here, why choose out of all the things in the world, the white crusade to fight some imaginary creeping Sharia law in Britain?

The white crusade? You don't even know my race, neither did I mention race at all. I don't care what color the fundamentalist is. I'll oppose them regardless of that. You also seem to be confusing opposition to Sharia Law with opposition to muslims. I have no problem with muslims in general. I do have a problem with the muslims that support violence against infidels and other such actions. As long as they don't beat their wives, prevent education, intimidate against free speech, and other such actions I don't care what they do.

Be reasonable instead of construing a reasonable position into an xenophobic one.

Why would you be against immigration because it lowers pay due to higher cheaper competition, how about oppose wage labour, not fight immigration?

I support any action that lowers the suffering of people while supporting abolishing the system at the same time. Also in regards to the question of immigration I refer you to the thread LWN.

The EDL openly attacked the anti capitalist wing of occupy, support imperialist occupation and murder and are about as lumpen and bigoted as any group going.

I already said that I oppose those types of actions and sentiments of the EDL.

Muslamic ray guns!

SalfordAnarchist

I've marched against these guys twice in Brighton.

They've only demonstrated there twice, both times the whole city turned filled the streets to send them packing.

We may be 'complacent' in government, but in Brighton at least, the people do NOT tolerate it!

Look the EDL are hardly supporting the Syrian government against the Islamists trying to destroy their secularish republic, nor did they support Ghaddafi against the Islamists who destroyed Libya. Instead they wave US and Israeli flags not realizing that the US and Israel have played a large role in the spread of fundamentalist Islam (their main ally in the region is Saudi Arabia). This says something very serious about them- they are either idiots or a creation of the state.

I'm actually beginning to laugh at the EDL more and more now.

They are idiots but they are nothing to laugh about.

The burhka is banned in most Muslim countries because it is seen (correctly) as a symbol of a dangerous political form of Islam, yet Ive seen it being very common on Birmingham streets. What is the story there? The first generation of Muslims immigrants into Britain covered their hair less than women did in Southern Ireland at the time...and now observe.

Im not opposed to Islam per se at all, but Islam has as many variations as Christianity and their are some forms you want to keep out.

Google Political Islam in the service of Imperialism by Samir Amin.

The leadership is funded and influenced by rich American Zionists and Neo Conservatives for that reason alone I don't go near it.

However we would be very luck in this country if we could have that level of working class support and involvement for Folkish Socialism.

Xachiavelli wrote:I've marched against these guys twice in Brighton.

They've only demonstrated there twice, both times the whole city turned filled the streets to send them packing.

We may be 'complacent' in government, but in Brighton at least, the people do NOT tolerate it!

Interesting actually considering that the EDL claim to stand up for homosexual rights and have a Gay division plus the organisation is multicultural,I assume you came out to protest against the EDL to protect the same rights they claim to stand for.Both sides should have a sit down and stop shouting "racist" and "leftie" at each other.

Personally I think your all as bad as each other in Brighton,EDL,UAF,Militant homosexuality,multiculturalists but the green crowd are ok in my book.Im surprised the Muslim community and the LGBT community haven't fallen out yet to be honest.

The EDL is basically just a bunch of hooligans looking for a fight, at least the majority of them are. It's members mainly consist of neo-nazis, football hooligans and racists. Although they claim they aren't racist because they have a couple of black and Asian members? Thankfully, this group seems to be internally destroying itself these days and the "movement" seems to have died to be honest. Last thing I heard was 2 of it's leaders, including Tommy Robinson were jailed? They claim they are combating "Islamic" extremism, but most people in their protests and marches seem to complain about minorities presence in the UK more than anything else. In other words... they are mislead fools. At least that's what I think about them. It's a real shame too. About 40% of their members seem to be honest working class people.

The EDL and the far right in general are a result of the establishment succesfully dividing working class people, and the left failing to grasp the nettle and firmly deal with various social issues. I fear even if the EDL dies, another group of far right activists shall replace them - such is the present situation in English politics.

I do feel there is a real need for a movemnet on the left to grasp socail and community politics and not be afraid to speak out on social issues. Instaed of fearing to venture into issue which feeds the far right, we need to launch a positive counter argument and actually engage with people in communities offering them another side to argument and a political solution.

I don't think the core of the EDL is racist or xenophobic, it's more just the hooligans who follow them. It sounds as though Tommy is convinced that what he's doing is genuinely a good thing for England, but he's not doing a great job of what he says he is. They seem to have a very vague goal with no real ideas of how to reach it. Mind you, driving around Muslim areas of London looking for a slap is probably contributing more to his cause than anything else I've seen him do...

Burkas are banned in most Islamic countries, Assad feels the same way about them as "Tommy" does!

They are a reaction to a real problem- the radicialization of Muslims in Britain, something which I dont fully understand but which has led to violence not only between Muslims and the white British, but between Muslims and Sikhs in particular but also Muslims and Hindus.

The whole pattern of multiculturalism on the British mainland is almost like the re-creation of the problems of Northern Ireland- the division of people into very seperated cultural groups that fight over resources for their particular grouping.

The whole United Against Fascism thing against them is nonsense- the EDL is based around Great British nationalism which is very much tied into the myth of World War II as some great anti-fascist crusade. Also the UAF totally fail to realize that in the battle for resources among different cultural/ethnic groups the white working class is often the loser (partly because they are badly organized or not organized at all compared to the other groupings and partly because of a bias against them on the part of trendy middle class bureaucrats and their likes in New Labour). They are still living in the 1970s and can only alienate people and drive them towards the BNP.

The majority of the EDL are simply mindless thugs with an axe to grind against anyone who is not white. They just people who look for trouble. We have seen it in Plymouth, where they met in a pub and then trashed an Indian takeaway when they were tanked up.

Regarding the division of people into very seperated cultural groups that fight over resources for their particular grouping; Who is dividing the cultural groups? The establishment. They pitch worker against worker, and whilst the workers fight amongst themselves they are not organised to defeat the establishment.

Modgardener wrote:Regarding the division of people into very seperated cultural groups that fight over resources for their particular grouping; Who is dividing the cultural groups? The establishment. They pitch worker against worker, and whilst the workers fight amongst themselves they are not organised to defeat the establishment.

Yes I agree with this.

I cant post links yet but google Separatism: Accident or design? - Red Action libcom.org

Paradosis wrote:The whole United Against Fascism thing against them is nonsense- the EDL is based around Great British nationalism which is very much tied into the myth of World War II as some great anti-fascist crusade. Also the UAF totally fail to realize that in the battle for resources among different cultural/ethnic groups the white working class is often the loser (partly because they are badly organized or not organized at all compared to the other groupings and partly because of a bias against them on the part of trendy middle class bureaucrats and their likes in New Labour). They are still living in the 1970s and can only alienate people and drive them towards the BNP.

It's a shame that all people on the left can offer is the same multicultural jargon,people are generally speaking ethnocentric.

Modgardener wrote:Regarding the division of people into very seperated cultural groups that fight over resources for their particular grouping; Who is dividing the cultural groups? The establishment. They pitch worker against worker, and whilst the workers fight amongst themselves they are not organised to defeat the establishment.

Why should the working class rally to our cause when most of the left would still allow the "others" to take up living space and jobs ect and demand they integrate themselves into a multicultural society in their own land?

Previously in this publication we have flagged the glaring contradiction between the acceptance of basic anti-racism, which demands everyone be treated the same and the hidden dangers of a multicultural ethos, which as the logic of the TPAS chair graphically illustrates, demands that everyone be treated differently. While the former tends toward the socialising of racial issues, multiculturalism sets its face against such an objective by racialising social issues like housing as determinedly as the Far-Right.

Am I reading this wrongly or are they actually declaring a distaste for multiculturalism? I always expect the average leftist website to be ridiculously anti-everything, dismissing everything as racist and having a strange fetish for multiculturalism.