Juche in the USA

Hello comrades,

I just joined this forum, I'm the chairman of the North American Juche-Songun Ideas Study Group, we're a group of nationalist-communists you might say who believe that the ideas of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are the correct new developments of socialist theory for the 21st century in the tradition of Marx, Lenin and Stalin.

While we are not chauvinists or supremacists of any race, we believe that all nations and ethnic groups have a right to preserve their independence, culture, and unique bloodlines, and we are currently researching ways this can be applied to the US context.

We ask all comrades here to check out or website and perhaps consider ways to get involved, if you support the DPRK for the one aspect, or if you'd like to help apply Juche in the USA and consider the role that nationalism can play here, we welcome all article and idea submissions.

- Jason

Here is the link to his website.

He's not able to post links due to the post count.

http://juchesongun.wordpress.com/

I'd rather not have a military aristocracy with fraudulent elections, thank you very much. I don't normally call people out like this but whoever thinks that the DPRK is a legitimate democracy is a damn loon.

I would like to see more information --scratch that, any information at all-- about what actually distinguishes Juche from any other socialist ideology. So far, the view of the DPRK with the most evidence presented that I've seen has been in the book The Cleanest Race by B R Myers, which by examining not only the propaganda that the DPRK presents to the outside world, but the propaganda it dispenses to its own people, arrives at three conclusions:
-North Korea is state socialist, but only in order to get backing from the USSR. Since the fall of the socialist bloc, it has refrained from even mentioning Marxism-Leninism in any official speeches.
-'Juche' is neither socialist nor a real ideology. It has no definite doctrines, and serves only to legitimise the actions of the ruling dynasty (Myers says that a good way to embarrass one's guides in N Korea is to ask them to explain it). In reality, especially since Songun, N Korea's leader has been more like Hirohito than Mao: a military dictator with no ideology other than power.
-N Korean nationalism has taken on disturbingly racist tendencies, with N Korean propaganda lauding the Korean race as superior to all others, and using much the same techniques of physical caricature/stereotyping to demonise the Americans as have been used on Jews and Africans by the West.

If you can block any of these accusations, I'd welcome the correction of my preconceptions. Considering that Myers is able to actually quote the North Korean state to prove his own points, though, I'm interested to see how you'll do it.

RedSun wrote:I would like to see more information --scratch that, any information at all-- about what actually distinguishes Juche from any other socialist ideology.

It is nationalistic in nature and acknowledges the military as an important part of the nation.

-North Korea is state socialist, but only in order to get backing from the USSR. Since the fall of the socialist bloc, it has refrained from even mentioning Marxism-Leninism in any official speeches.

That isn't damning evidence at all in fact I applaud them for it. Marxism-Leninism is nothing but a failed experiment and a degenerated bloc of communism.

I, personally, do not want any sort of state socialism but I am in no position to tell the Korean people what they need. Telling them what they need comes with the most brutal forms of imperialism.

-'Juche' is neither socialist nor a real ideology. It has no definite doctrines, and serves only to legitimise the actions of the ruling dynasty (Myers says that a good way to embarrass one's guides in N Korea is to ask them to explain it). In reality, especially since Songun, N Korea's leader has been more like Hirohito than Mao: a military dictator with no ideology other than power.

You just said it was state socialist. So how can it not be socialist? Juche as an ideology has already been discussed on this board mainly here

-N Korean nationalism has taken on disturbingly racist tendencies, with N Korean propaganda lauding the Korean race as superior to all others, and using much the same techniques of physical caricature/stereotyping to demonise the Americans as have been used on Jews and Africans by the West.

First of all, even if this is true, who the hell cares? They're over there in Korea and they can teach their people that if they want to. Unless you're getting hurt feelings about what Kim Jong Il was teaching people in their own country than you should refrain from making such remarks and calling North Korea "racist" (whatever that word means anymore).

By the way Jason, I personally do not support any sort of state socialism or any system where leadership is passed down through a lineage but North Korea is indeed both nationalist and socialist. Whatever is best for the Korean people may not be best for my people and I have no right to tell them what they need, I support them 100% especially against western aggression.

Pantheon Rising wrote:It is nationalistic in nature and acknowledges the military as an important part of the nation.

Is that it? My opposition to Songun has already been noted, since like state socialism in general it perpetuates a class system (not to mention risking military dictatorship, a phenomenon already approaching in the DPRK as Kim Jong Un will be sharing power with his generals instead of ruling on his own); I favour the Strasserist idea that the military and the proletariat are inseparable. As for nationalism, great; I was just expecting a greater doctrinal difference.

That isn't damning evidence at all in fact I applaud them for it. Marxism-Leninism is nothing but a failed experiment and a degenerated bloc of communism.

I, personally, do not want any sort of state socialism but I am in no position to tell the Korean people what they need. Telling them what they need comes with the most brutal forms of imperialism.

Marxism-Leninism here serves as a stand-in for 'basic socialist principles': I'll explain below.
I agree that I don't want to tell them what they need; I'd just like to see how this is the best thing for the Korean people.

You just said it was state socialist. So how can it not be socialist? Juche as an ideology has already been discussed on this board mainly here

The implication is that the Kims are a monarchic dynasty, like Hirohito, which has used the state socialist system as a way of getting a boost up from the USSR & PRC. However, Myers's point is that the Kims have no attachment to any socialist principles, and so the state socialist system, like Songun, becomes a way of concentrating power in their own hands instead of fulfilling its true function.

First of all, even if this is true, who the hell cares? They're over there in Korea and they can teach their people that if they want to. Unless you're getting hurt feelings about what Kim Jong Il was teaching people in their own country than you should refrain from making such remarks and calling North Korea "racist" (whatever that word means anymore).

I see no reason to support a reactionary nationalist regime. If they turn out to be just left-wing nationalist, then sure. But supporting ethnic chauvinism will do me no services. As for 'racist', despite its overuse, it means the same thing it has always meant: the belief that one's own ethnic group is physically, mentally, and morally superior to all others.

Allow me to clarify my position. I have no personal animus against the DPRK; indeed I'd very much like there to be a truly socialist, democratic regime there. However, the most evidence I've seen for any viewpoint is that presented by Myers, since he is able to quote the propaganda presented to the Korean people by their government, in their own language. If the North American Juche-Songun Ideas Study Group can produce the same quality of evidence in the other direction, I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong (though I think most of us agree that regardless, the DPRK could use a greater degree of decentralised democracy and a non-hereditary leadership).
For example, the fact that, as Myers also demonstrates, even the North Koreans who escape the DPRK remain loyal to Kim Il Sung, justifying his actions and even bursting into tears when they mention him, and that North Koreans are much more voluble and original in their praise of him (as opposed to woodenly repeating slogans when speaking of Kim Jong Il) is a pretty powerful statement about his leadership, if not that of his son.

RedSun wrote:Is that it? My opposition to Songun has already been noted, since like state socialism in general it perpetuates a class system (not to mention risking military dictatorship, a phenomenon already approaching in the DPRK as Kim Jong Un will be sharing power with his generals instead of ruling on his own); I favour the Strasserist idea that the military and the proletariat are inseparable. As for nationalism, great; I was just expecting a greater doctrinal difference.

It has been stated elsewhere that Songun ideology doesn't see the "proletariat" and army as separable entities. What you're talking about is a military class much like the Vedic Kshatriya. I don't see how a military first policy is the same as that at all when one is facing constant imperial aggression.

Marxism-Leninism here serves as a stand-in for 'basic socialist principles': I'll explain below.
I agree that I don't want to tell them what they need; I'd just like to see how this is the best thing for the Korean people.

No, Marxism-Leninism is basic Marxist principles. Marx and Lenin were hardly the only socialists and/or most important socialists.

The implication is that the Kims are a monarchic dynasty, like Hirohito, which has used the state socialist system as a way of getting a boost up from the USSR & PRC. However, Myers's point is that the Kims have no attachment to any socialist principles, and so the state socialist system, like Songun, becomes a way of concentrating power in their own hands instead of fulfilling its true function.

I posted a video elsewhere, where I linked to a video of North Koreans voting. Not only that but NKeans have universal healthcare, do not recognize private property, and invest federal funds in projects such as housing. We may have a problem with how the power is dished out but how is this not socialist? Worker self management isn't the only form of socialism.

I see no reason to support a reactionary nationalist regime. If they turn out to be just left-wing nationalist, then sure. But supporting ethnic chauvinism will do me no services. As for 'racist', despite its overuse, it means the same thing it has always meant: the belief that one's own ethnic group is physically, mentally, and morally superior to all others.

And it isn't harming anyone over there in Korea - if that is even what they have been teaching. I know of a certain race that gets told they believe those things just for saying they are proud. Furthermore, if someone doesn't like what Koreans believe, than the solution is simple. Don't visit Korea.

Allow me to clarify my position. I have no personal animus against the DPRK; indeed I'd very much like there to be a truly socialist, democratic regime there. However, the most evidence I've seen for any viewpoint is that presented by Myers, since he is able to quote the propaganda presented to the Korean people by their government, in their own language. If the North American Juche-Songun Ideas Study Group can produce the same quality of evidence in the other direction, I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong (though I think most of us agree that regardless, the DPRK could use a greater degree of decentralised democracy and a non-hereditary leadership).
For example, the fact that, as Myers also demonstrates, even the North Koreans who escape the DPRK remain loyal to Kim Il Sung, justifying his actions and even bursting into tears when they mention him, and that North Koreans are much more voluble and original in their praise of him (as opposed to woodenly repeating slogans when speaking of Kim Jong Il) is a pretty powerful statement about his leadership, if not that of his son.

If you ask me it is a powerful statement in the right direction. Recent footage of a great deal of Koreans crying and mourning the loss of their leader should at least mean something. Could you imagine anybody, any leader, or any idea meaning that much to a westerner? It is a step in the right direction; the most a westerner cries over is the loss of a material object like an iPhone.

Pantheon Rising wrote:It has been stated elsewhere that Songun ideology doesn't see the "proletariat" and army as separable entities. What you're talking about is a military class much like the Vedic Kshatriya. I don't see how a military first policy is the same as that at all when one is facing constant imperial aggression.

Hmm. Having done a bit more reading, I'll concede Songun, especially in the situation that the DPRK is currently in. I still don't like the sharing-power-with-the-generals business, though.

I posted a video elsewhere, where I linked to a video of North Koreans voting. Not only that but NKeans have universal healthcare, do not recognize private property, and invest federal funds in projects such as housing. We may have a problem with how the power is dished out but how is this not socialist? Worker self management isn't the only form of socialism.

I find the video 'There is Democracy in North Korea' to be rather dubious, given that the appearance of elections is not always indicative of fair elections (e.g. Putin's false parties & the Anschluss vote) and especially given that the Kims have been reelected for their entire lives, with no serious opposition, regardless of the country's situation.
It's not socialist because it's entirely likely that the DPRK will only continue to use a state socialist system as long as it benefits the leaders. Not the people, the leaders. We may be already seeing this with the North Korean introduction of capitalist Special Economic Zones.

If you ask me it is a powerful statement in the right direction. Recent footage of a great deal of Koreans crying and mourning the loss of their leader should at least mean something. Could you imagine anybody, any leader, or any idea meaning that much to a westerner? It is a step in the right direction; the most a westerner cries over is the loss of a material object like an iPhone.

Exactly. I entirely agree. I just want to see evidence that such devotion is justified.

And it isn't harming anyone over there in Korea - if that is even what they have been teaching. I know of a certain race that gets told they believe those things just for saying they are proud. Furthermore, if someone doesn't like what Koreans believe, than the solution is simple. Don't visit Korea.

I'll swing by the library tomorrow and pick up The Cleanest Race so I can quote you the text. Suffice to say it portrays Americans as physically/genetically more like the lowest of predator-scavengers than like humans.
I moved this to the end because there's another point here. You've repeatedly made the point that I shouldn't criticise Juche/Songun because I have no right to decide what's best for Korea. That's a fair point. But what we've both forgotten is that that's not the topic of the thread. The topic of the thread is 'Juche in the USA'. So it's not only reasonable but necessary to closely scrutinise the nature of the Juche idea, because the question here is whether or not it should be applied right here, where you and I live.
This is why I want to see evidence that Juche is a real socialist ideology, and not simply an opportunist form of militaristic monarchism.
This is why I want to know if all of the DPRK's attitude towards Americans is as frankly racist as Myers proves it to be, and whether the North American Juche-Songun Ideas Study Group follows this pattern or disavows it, both because I will never support a racist ideology (I see no reason to make RevLeft cosmopolitans more right than necessary) and because for an American to support such beliefs as the DPRK appears to hold is as ridiculously illogical as for a Slav to be a neo-Nazi.
EDIT: Having more closely read the OP I see that they have rejected ethnic chauvinism/supremacism. Excellent. It just begs the question of what their opinion is of the DPRK's portrayal of Americans.

Even though this discussion seems to have ended, I'd like to say here that having read through the Juche Idea Course from the Korean Academy of Social Sciences, Juche seems in fact to be a good, socialist, ideology (NOTE: this statement shouldn't be taken to imply total support for the actions of the DPRK). I concede that I was wrong. Some questions for NorthAmericanJuche, though, assuming he still logs on and didn't register just to promote his study group:
-Why centralised state socialism and hereditary succession? Wouldn't decentralised democracy be better for the will of the people to express itself?
-Would the same degree of militarism be necessary in North America as the DPRK feels it is in Korea?
-Are there any other changes to Juche-Songun you feel appropriate for North America?

Pantheon Rising wrote:That isn't damning evidence at all in fact I applaud them for it. Marxism-Leninism is nothing but a failed experiment and a degenerated bloc of communism.

So I suppose that we should abandon all theories that seem to be failed experiments? National Socialism? People should just abandon that because the Third Reich fell. Anarcho-syndicalism? Well the Spanish communes don't exist anymore, so I supposed that's a failed experiment too. I guess we should all stick to Capitalism because it's the only experiment that seems to be doing ok.

We are Americans LOL ! How can we hate our own people ? Our belief is that the USA is not a true nation as it does not fit Leader Kim Jong Il's definition of a nation as a people possessing a common language, territory and bloodline. We believe that the revolution will entail a process of pan-national liberation from the Washington regime and the formation of new nations.

In response to redSun

1 - an authoritarian state is absolutely necessary to protect Korea from invasion, direct democracies are too weak (witness Libya)
2 well, my personal opinion is that there is going to be a people's war in the USA someday........afterwards however it will not be like the DPRK because there no longer will be an imperialist empire riding rough-side over the world.

3 another key Juche concept useful for Americans, besides the idea of nationality, is that of consciousness prevailing over objective conditions as the determining factor that makes revolution possible. If we want it we can do it, even though the road may be difficult.

NorthAmericanJuche wrote:Our belief is that the USA is not a true nation as it does not fit Leader Kim Jong Il's definition of a nation as a people possessing a common language, territory and bloodline.

I don't disagree with the notion that the United States is something of an artificially contrived nation which will likely be modified following the proletarian revolution, but why should the people consider Kim Jong-il's thoughts on the matter? Genuine nations form organically, and while there may be a fairly consistent pattern found among such national formations, they needn't follow a specific criteria when being established. The working class will determine national boundaries for themselves, in accordance with the traditional socialist principle of radical democracy.

an authoritarian state is absolutely necessary to protect Korea from invasion, direct democracies are too weak (witness Libya)

A population committed to national defense is necessary, not an autocratic government. As for Libya, it was a pseudo-democracy. Its institutions claiming to facilitate "direct democracy" were ceremonial shams which exercised no real control.

Celtiberian wrote:A population committed to national defense is necessary, not an autocratic government. As for Libya, it was a pseudo-democracy. Its institutions claiming to facilitate "direct democracy" were ceremonial shams which exercised no real control.

Agreed. If the people have to be coerced into solidarity, they will abandon socialism, as shown countless times by the Socialist Bloc. Most direct democracies have simply suffered from lack of sufficient equipment to defend themselves (e.g. the Republican fighters in Spain, the RIAU in the Russian Civil War).