Queer Vanguard

Leon Mcnichol wrote:I remind the ones involved in this ( rather pointless..) thread, specially new comers, that personal accusations or insults towards other members of the forum are not tolerated under forum rules. This is not Revleft.

The bold cannot be stressed enough. Refrain from antagonizing other members and ejecting vapid insults.

sovereign.individual wrote:..drivel..

Funny, lot's of talk about how women are exploited, but not a word about how men are equally exploited and reduced to the condition of horny animals in the porn industry. So much for "morality" and "socialism" right? You could have a point, if your whole view of this subject wasn't sexualized and feminist from the get go.

I wonder what you have to say of those women who put their own home videos of them having sex, masturbating, etc in public sites by their own free will, witch is by a fact the fastest growing form of consumed porn on the world now. That they are being "exploited"? By who exactly? The "system"? I remind you many people do this for free, without even getting a cent. Is it correct? Is it a good practice? It depends, but i sure don't go around preaching any "socialist" ideas about it. At the end of the day, that is just side talk, or what i usually reserve as "after revolution" issues.

Leon Mcnichol wrote:Funny, lot's of talk about how women are exploited, but not a word about how men are equally exploited and reduced to the condition of horny animals in the porn industry. So much for "morality" and "socialism" right? You could have a point, if your whole view of this subject wasn't sexualized and feminist from the get go.

I wonder what you have to say of those women who put their own home videos of them having sex, masturbating, etc in public sites by their own free will, witch is by a fact the fastest growing form of consumed porn on the world now. That they are being "exploited"? By who exactly? The "system"? I remind you many people do this for free, without even getting a cent. Is it correct? Is it a good practice? It depends, but i sure don't go around preaching any "socialist" ideas about it. At the end of the day, that is just side talk, or what i usually reserve as "after revolution" issues.

And tell me... what's the mean age of girls who film themselves in sexual situations and have their image documented and hosted online for free for men to use? 15? 13? Nice try but this behaviour is _still_ socialised to reinforce male privilege and using it to try to defend porn is far from admirable considering it's practiced by _minors_ out of "choice". It still comes down to choice with you people... _central_ to socialism is a critique of hegemony or did you forget this?

Men as well as women in the industry have testified that their _fermale_ co-stars are frequently reduced to tears on set after hours and hours of shooting the same homogenous dehumanising scenes... you can accsue me of moralising of feminism or whatever other boogieman you can pull out of your hat all you wish. Your oinion is about as bougeois as it gets.

"Pantheon Rising",

Patriarchy is "imaginary" and yet the wage gap still exists and yet violence sexual violence in particular against women thrives and yet media dehumanises women for entertainment and yet religion and politics and academia and the corporate world are predominantly lead by _men_... I see. Religious nutters would have all women living their lives as wives and mothers and the liberal bourgeois establishment would have them all dancing around poles... that's patriarchy... right there. It isn't left or right and you as a male are as guilty as this poor and uneducated people ("trash"?) you speak of... the classism of your claim here is almost funny... the bourgeois the mainstream the norm _is_ misogynist. If the poor and uneducated are among the most misogynist it's only because they're turning on their televisions and "learning" tp play their part. Choice. Choice. Choice. Choice. So much for a critique of hegemony... of agency... socialism must have been wrong all along right hypocrite? Read Gramsci. And tell me how choice comes into your personalised pro-free market "socialism".

Many people enjoy doing a lot of things... many people enjoy their privileged bourgeois lifestyles which is something you would take from them except of course if they're women privileged enough to make choices to make that choice that would cater to your misogyny. Your attitiude about porn underpins free enterprise... you think people should be able to produce and buy and view whatever they like if the worker consents to it... fine... you're free to think that... but stop pretending you're a socialist.

How is pandering to misogyny profitable... are you serious? 1. Turn on your television and watch MTV... misogyny is about as profitable as it comes. Sexual labour is the third most profitable of industries on the planet... using women consuming women reducing them to objects for _capital_ is fine to you and that's fine but you're _not_ a socialist.

The reason you don't care to search is because you _don't care_... you can access books and articles or discuss the issue at the websites of the mentioned theorists... new members here (e.g. me) are not allowed to post external links sorry. You can access articles and books and references from the wikipedia pages of theorists like D. A. Clarke and Gail Dines (the latter has written more than a few scathing criticisms of "leftists" who defend this indefensible choice of white middle class women to support existing pillars of power. Good luck with that.

sovereign.individual wrote:..more drivel...

As you know, minors accessing such sites is already against the law, so thats a straw argument. Answer me, will you forbid free women of posting such videos of them performing sexual acts on the internet? Do you or do you not consider the male porn starts to be exploited and turned into objects too?

Secondly, you can outlaw the industry of porn all you want, but while the capitalism system is in place, you won't be able to remove the drive to earn easy money from basic needs, and i really doubt you'll be able to outlaw it in the first place anyways. So please, focus on the essential here.

Finally, if you insist on accusing other members of not being "socialist", you will be restricted to the OV section. I don't like to make public warnings, but since all your posts up to now have been marked by a tone of hostility , i don't see why i should take care of this affair privately.

Leon Mcnichol wrote:As you know, minors accessing such sites is already against the law, so thats a straw argument. Answer me, will you forbid free women of posting such videos of them performing sexual acts on the internet? Do you or do you not consider the male porn starts to be exploited and turned into objects too?

Secondly, you can outlaw the industry of porn all you want, but while the capitalism system is in place, you won't be able to remove the drive to earn easy money from basic needs, and i really doubt you'll be able to outlaw it in the first place anyways. So please, focus on the essential here.

Finally, if you insist on accusing other members of not being "socialist", you will be restricted to the OV section. I don't like to make public warnings, but since all your posts up to now have been marked by a tone of hostility , i don't see why i should take care of this affair privately.

I said nothing about minors _accessing_ porn... you mentioned the culture of girls filming themselves and uploading these free videos to the net... my point is that the majority of girls that do this for free for the camera are in fact underage. Teenage girls on Stickam hardly serve as a defence for porn for the dynamics of the subject-object relations in porn in general... the only strawman here is yours because you completely missed the point I was making about underage girls choosing to make their own porn. A fact: the mean age of entry _into_ prostitution worldworld is 13... have a think about that and ask yourself how utterly ridiculous it is to reduce this debate to one of free agency. Do these girls choose this line of work? Once they're adults and compounding the trauma of _that_ ordeal and now drug-dependent and abused and tortured for your entertainment is it still just about choice... another fact: the paradigm in the industry is drug-dependency and a history of sexual violence... but please don't let that stop you from getting off. The essence of your defence of pornographic material on the basis that it is homemade that it is existing outside of the marketplace is that it all comes down to choice to free agency which once again is a notion irreconcilable with socialist thought. If you truly believed that people can live their lives however they choose you wouldn't be a socialist... you want to change the world but you don't want to threaten the status quo attitude about girls and young women because you're a hegemon just as much as any capitalist. A critique of hegemony with regard to gender means nothing to you? Fair enough. How you can reconcilable how normalised misogynist behaviour has become through media and not question the why of why women and girls choose to do this with questioning how capitalism and mass media reinforce other pillars of power... this is surely naive at best. Not once have I said anything about forbidding women to do anything... in Sweden prostitutes are not forbidden to solicit customers... johns and pimps however are jailed... were it up to me men who watch porn would be more than jailed... and you can make of that what you will. Male porn stars are also reduced to objects to commodities but suggesting that there is a level playing field is more than just a little delusional. The product and its production is calculated predominantly by men for men. It's hypermasculine and _hegemonic_ in its treatment of sex. Period. Fair point about calling others "not socialist" although you did this yourself by putting socialism in quotation marks simply because my socialism extends to questioning the reality of misogyny of male privilege and giving a damn about women... by all means censor me.... the irony will be more than funny.

sovereign.individual wrote:...rambling...

You are running away from the points i made. You know perfectly well that a lot of ADULT women post videos on the net.

You constantly ignore my questions about male exploitation.

I conclude you are nothing but an agitator, and not a very good one. You failed to answer my questions, and you failed to provide solid arguments for banning porn besides some distorted idea of "socialism" (yes, with quotation marks).

Besides, that discussion is purely academical. Banning the industry of porn might be unnecessary in a post revolutionary society, as other members already pointed out.

I have come to the conclusions this thread isn't even worthy of being on Stormfront or RevLeft. It is that bad. We have a guy advocating we take revolutionary acts of sodomy, a guy advocating we ban competition in partner choosing, and a guy that has within his first couple posts called me dumb as shit, an imbecile, a bourgeois liberal, a corporate swine, and a capitalist. Wonderful.

I will never post in this thread again because in the most polite way it is retarded, yes retarded, in every single way.

Leon Mcnichol wrote:You are running away from the points i made. You know perfectly well that a lot of ADULT women post videos on the net.

You constantly ignore my questions about male exploitation.

I conclude you are nothing but an agitator, and not a very good one. You failed to answer my questions, and you failed to provide solid arguments for banning porn besides some distorted idea of "socialism" (yes, with quotation marks).

Besides, that discussion is purely academical. Banning the industry of porn might be unnecessary in a post revolutionary society, as other members already pointed out.

How am I running away from the point about adult women making porn when I have _repeated_ over and over again the point about media and how it has normalised complacency as far as misogyny is concerned? You're the one running away from the truth about media about _capitalism_ and the part it played in normalising that culture of pandering to misogynist shitbags over the internet. The internet itself is a marketplace and one that the average "leftist" would leave unregulated would leave a monument of free enterprise where people can do what they want... The only people running asay from anything are self-righteous hypocrites who who run away from reality and go on and on about capitalism and _the system_ when they themselves support existing pillars of power and remain privy to injustice.

Neither did I ignore your question about male exploitation... I mentioned that men in the industry have testified that it is their _female_ co-workers who are frequently harmed on set and coerced into things... I'm no feminist but only a simpleton would "think" for want of a better word that a sound argument in favour of porn is to "think" that women in any industry least of all one that sexualises their inequity their consumption are perhaps no more harmed or exploited than their male co-workers. Your argument or lack of rather exemplifies Strawman... firstly because it is ignoring cogent testimonies and intensive and extensive research into the industry to offer up meaningless ideas and abstracts and also you're suggesting that both sexes are perhaps harmed and exploited and that this somehow nullifies opposition to the industry. You fit squarely into the paradigm of people on the "left" who scrutinise almost everything to level changes of capitalist of fascist of bourgeois sentiment but then switch off your brain to strive to defend something you have little to no knowledge of and do so with the vapid and predicable defenses of sexual labour common among the average adolescent. You're entitled to your opinion as much as anyone but it is the height of self-righteouness to sook incessantly about economic injustice when you're as complacent as your advesaries. The disproptionate majority of "leftists" these days are white are male and as bourgeois as it gets as evidenced in the vapid and predictable liberal bourgeios drivel you come up with to defend porn. And yet you think you speak for "the worker"... keep telling yourself that along with the other lies you tell yourself about gender if it helps you sleep at night.

I'll add that that it would be funny the way you think it's offensive for someone to think some women are wrong to do this or do that to pander to male privilege if it weren't so sad so obvious how brainwashed you must be to forget that _you_ embrace an ideology that propels you to offend to think practically every person on the planet is wrong and things need to change according to _your_ will and that of others like you. The whole idea of equality whether economic whether racial whether gender-specific _is_ moralistic. Hypocrisy. And self-righteouness. And "arguments" about porn and gender that mirror those of the average teenage boy. And "I'm" the one with bad arguments... why... because you simply don't want to engage with reality with a critique of hegemony or an understanding of misogny and want to go on being ignorant in the same way you accuse others of who don't agree with your politics of convenience. Reds and anarchists sooking about inequity about hegemony and then turning their brains off and for what... if you want your sexuality to be constructed by a commodity by a film by an image made to arouse misogynist imbeciles then go ahead but don't pretend you're any smarter than the ignorant masses that are complicit to capitalism.

sovereign.individual wrote:...incoherent rambling..

You accuse me of having "arguments of a teenage boy", of being a "liberal bourgeios", of "Hypocrisy. And self-righteouness. " and of ignoring your arguments? What arguments? That women suffer while doing professional porn, so therefore porn should be banned? While concluding a formal fallacy that if we do not support that, we are capitalists? Who is the one defending said "moralistic position" if not yourself? Not to mention said studies were asked and not put forward.

I said it before and i say i again. Porn is an issue for post revolution discussion. Given the fact that actresses would own the profits of every movie they would be in, said discussion takes a whole different approach.

But you sir, are nothing but an agitator like i said before, who is constantly voicing personal attacks.

This thread has run its course, and it's now so much off topic that it's better to close it.