Re: The RevLeft Troll Thread

[DSN]

They usually use the straw man argument of accusing all conceptions of nationalism (left-wing or otherwise) of being inherently class collaborationist. This is convenient for them, of course, because it leaves the impression that only cosmopolitanism is consistent with revolutionary socialism. Omitted is the fact that the majority of socialist theorists in the past found left-wing nationalism unobjectionable from the perspective of class struggle. Now, nationalism obviously can be utilized by the bourgeoisie to quell the class struggle, but it can just as easily be used by socialists and communists to advance the class struggle, as Jame Connolly understood. In other words, nationalism is a neutral medium which needs to be provided with content in order to be politically effective.

I think they honestly are scared of the idea. What's more worrying is the possibility of causing a huge split between the left at the brink of revolution when left-wing nationalism is thrown into the same basket of apples as bourgeois nationalism, and certain groups—or even entire nations—begin wasting their energy on suppressing left-wing nationalist movements which could otherwise actually be far more productive for our cause than killing each other ever will be. I don't know a lot about this area of history, but I've never heard anything about autonomous Native American groups becoming violently racist and building huge armies to destroy other nations, even when they were the ones being attacked and were fighting for their freedom. I simply don't understand why it has to be fascism or world domination when the idea of self-determination presents itself.

[Comrade Tito]

I think it is because most of those people really embrace extreme liberalism rather than any sort of socialism.

[DSN]

I think it is because most of those people really embrace extreme liberalism rather than any sort of socialism.

Plastic anarkiddie socialism. It's focused on the idea of equality more than the reality of it.

[Sex Bomb]

Red Aegis suck cocks

That's all.

Regards from RevLeft

[Red Aegis]

[Rev Scare]

How dare you use such homophobic language on our forum, sir? You imply that male oral sex is offensive, yet numerous lads on RevLeft doubtlessly partake in it. (Penis in vagina sex, on the other hand, is viewed with scorn, of course.)

On a serious note, I will allow this post to remain, simply to exemplify how pitiful our cosmopolitan opposition is. All future threads created with the sole intent to insult our site and/or members will be deleted without hesitation.

[Entfremdung]

I think it is because most of those people really embrace extreme liberalism rather than any sort of socialism.

EXACTLY.

Just tried posting on RevLeft.  Instantly accused of fascism and consigned to the trash because they "skim read" and jumped to a whole lot of false assumptions.

[Celtiberian]

We've been discovered, yet again. This time by the user Naroc. S/he asks:

I just read that it is a board for left-wing nationalists. Does that mean they're Stalinists/Maoists?

The answer is we accept all revolutionary socialists on our forum, including Maoists and Marxist-Leninists. Our moderators, however, consist exclusively of revolutionary syndicalists, i.e., libertarian communists who believe the dictatorship of capital will be ended via the direct action of the working class.

The left-wing nationalism we espouse does not originate in the writings of Stalin or Mao, but can rather be traced to the work of men like Otto Bauer and James Connolly. In short, we believe that national identity is a legitimate and enduring form of self-identification which will persist into communism.

Naroc then adds:

Some of their opinions and statements seemed quite strange to me.

How so? Feel free to state why in our Opposing Views sub-forum.

A Revleft moderator, Sasha, is quick to respond, discouraging further inquiry into our forum by assuring curious members that we're "mostly nazbols and other 'red' fascists," hence it's "best to ignore [us] altogether, unless you're a masochist." It's fascinating we should be dismissed as "nazbols" and "red fascists" considering the scarcity of members who adhere to those doctrines on our forum. With respect to the former, we permit them to join under the strict condition they conform with our general guidelines and are legitimately anti-capitalist in orientation. As for the latter, so-called "red fascists"—by which I presume Sasha means Strasserists—are regularly debated and restricted.

[Celtiberian]

As I predicted, the recent RevLeft thread devoted to our forum has descended into a flagrant campaign of disinformation. We've been accused of racism and antisemitism (despite the fact our forum guidelines state that those who promote ethnic chauvinism will be restricted or banned, and we have debated reactionaries of that sort several times in the past), crypto-Third Positionism (ignoring that we adamantly reject the notion that there can be a 'third way' between capitalism and communism), and fascism (because, apparently, only fascists have used the word "phalanx" in a non-military context historically—forget Charles Fourier's Phalanstère). The user Vincent West is, by fay, the worst the offender in terms of perpetuating myths about the Socialist Phalanx.

Being that we're dealing with seriously deranged individuals, I'm going to make this rather simple: we are communists (i.e., activists who demand the socialization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange) who additionally believe that national identity is not reducible to bourgeois ideology. We categorically reject every tenet of fascist doctrine (e.g., ethnic chauvinism, militarism, imperialism, palingenetic ultranationalism, and corporativism).

What I find so ironic is many of the figures these cosmopolitan imbeciles revere (e.g., Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin) made remarks infinitely more racist than one could locate among the restricted members of this forum. Yet how often does one hear Marx, Engels, or Bakunin accused of "fascism"?

[Uberak]

As I predicted, the recent RevLeft thread devoted to our forum has descended into a flagrant campaign of disinformation. We've been accused of racism and antisemitism (despite the fact our forum guidelines state that those who promote ethnic chauvinism will be restricted or banned, and we have debated reactionaries of that sort several times in the past), crypto-Third Positionism (ignoring that we adamantly reject the notion that there can be a 'third way' between capitalism and communism), and fascism (because, apparently, only fascists have used the word "phalanx" in a non-military context historically—forget Charles Fourier's Phalanstère). The user Vincent West is, by fay, the worst the offender in terms of perpetuating myths about the Socialist Phalanx.

Being that we're dealing with seriously deranged individuals, I'm going to make this rather simple: we are communists (i.e., activists who demand the socialization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange) who additionally believe that national identity is not reducible to bourgeois ideology. We categorically reject every tenet of fascist doctrine (e.g., ethnic chauvinism, militarism, imperialism, palingenetic ultranationalism, and corporativism).

What I find so ironic is many of the figures these cosmopolitan imbeciles revere (e.g., Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin) made remarks infinitely more racist than one could locate among the restricted members of this forum. Yet how often does one hear Marx, Engels, or Bakunin accused of "fascism"?

I concur except that I'm not a communist. I'm a mutualist.

But seriously, do they actually read the god damn forum? The only criticism they can really make is how we tend to be inactive and possibly having a much thicker skin when dealing with newer, more misguided users. Also, I love how they censor all links to our forum, as if they don't want the average user to actually read our posts.

Honestly, I wish they put it into the opposing ideology section, so I can at least clarify things to the more sane Revleft members. I still have an account in Revleft.

As for "gems about feminist misandry", I think they, or Vincent West, should realize that the bigger feminist in that thread had somewhat racialist views and the views on feminism were hardly united amongst the membership. I, for one, disavowed feminism, with its constant victimization of women and promoting a new set of ridiculous gender expectations, for a general egalitarianism and libertarianism on the issue in which individuals are unburdened by gender roles, both masculine or feminine in nature. Also, I haven't really seen any use of the word "mangina" in that thread, though I could be enlightened when it comes to that.

And for "threads about whether "autonomous nationalists" and Strasserists are their allies", that was made by one of the aforementioned "misguided" users. (This is my opinion on the users. I do not represent the entirety of the forum in any way.) I unilaterally criticized and dismissed them, but I did say that it is usually easy for them to be convinced out of their confused ideas. This is not to say that we should align ourselves with people of that ideological persuasion. In fact, you can say that we're killing fascism and other forms of right-wing populism by taking away their rank-and-file members.

Finally, the tendency function of this forum is for members to announce their personal tendencies, and even the restricted members can announce their tendencies. The majority of the forum's active userbase profess some form of syndicalism, including myself with myself professing a combination of De-Leonist syndicalism and mutualism. I am actually rather liberal on social issues, and my nationalism is more civic and cultural rather than blood and soil. And, I favor a decentralized, direct-democratic, and constitutional government over a highly centralized state. So, this forum is most definitely not just a place for National Bolsheviks and "Red Fascists" to get their Soviet nostalgia on. I don't even use Soviet imagery for goodness sakes.

Also, it is rather funny how Revleft is criticizing us for being too liberal with our treatment of the userbase. I thought we were the intolerant and bigoted fascists who love authoritarianism.

I think we need to form a decent phalanx against the charge of those near-slanderous accusations. (Get it?)  

[Leon Mcnichol]

How funny, RevLeft still remembers us. Giving the normal atention span of their membership (witch usually wanes after they come of age) i was about to bet they would think we are some sort of ancient greece fans or something...

They totally seem oblivious to the fact that their forum keeps rehashing the same old discussions over and over again, in a sort of big circular thread that only makes them look like some upside down version of stormfront....

Opss, i said too much...      

[cogarian888]

RevLeft is a joke. They seem to think that they can confront different ideologies by censoring them and strawmanning them; unfortunately for them, people can actually read and judge things for themselves. That's how I came to the Socialist Phalanx: they were complaining about how "fascist" the site was, and I checked it out for myself and noticed that it's nothing like Iron March or Stormfront, and that RevLeft is full of shit. Maybe they should try actually engaging different views on the national question instead of sticking with mainstream Left orthodoxy. Or, of course, they could just keep banning everyone who joins their forum with even moderately different views, and lead them into the arms of various political enemies.

The latter being what almost happened to me when I realized that the position that races differ biologically isn't some completely debunked notion that only the most anti-science people could subscribe to. Even though this forum may widely disagree with this notion, you have to at least admit it's not completely out of the realm of possibility, and that the case for it is nuanced and deserves a nuanced response. You will not find any nuanced response from the mainstream Left, which just responds with insults and shaming. Since they didn't give me a forum to integrate that with my other beliefs, I had to look to people who did consider this possibility; thankfully, I could see through the social conservatism, corporatism, and Jew blaming of the fascists. Not everyone is like me, though.

When you don't even consider an issue and just make it a taboo that is completely off limits, and when you don't respond to arguments that are worth responding to, you make people who mostly agree with you question their entire value system. The Left needs to actually engage with positions it finds disagreeable, and they especially need to consider Left Nationalist viewpoints on the national question.

As for "gems about feminist misandry", I think they, or Vincent West, should realize that the bigger feminist in that thread had somewhat racialist views

I don't see how this is relevant to the point I was making in that thread, or what point you're trying to make with bringing it up.

I realize you and most people disagree with racialism, but if you actually engage with me, I think you'll discover that I'm not just a crank asshole or just completely unreasonable. This isn't the thread for that, of course, but I'm just making a plea that you don't dismiss me entirely solely because of my racial views, which probably aren't what you think they are.

[Uberak]

I don't see how this is relevant to the point I was making in that thread, or what point you're trying to make with bringing it up.

I realize you and most people disagree with racialism, but if you actually engage with me, I think you'll discover that I'm not just a crank asshole or just completely unreasonable. This isn't the thread for that, of course, but I'm just making a plea that you don't dismiss me entirely solely because of my racial views, which probably aren't what you think they are.

Okay, I admit that I'm a bit heavy-handed with you, and I apologize for that out of both courtesy and respecting your right as a member to speak your opinion. But, I intended it to be more of a trolling maneuver towards Revleft's direction than anything else, since they were complaining about "gems about feminist misandry". Just to say, "the position you're rabidly defending or enforcing doesn't make you lefter than thou".

And, I hope to have more fruitful discussions with you later.

[HomelessArtist]

Maybe they should try actually engaging different views on the national question instead of sticking with mainstream Left orthodoxy.

Now that you mention this; I imagine the regular RevLeft poster to be an upper/upper-middle class college studient studying liberal arts or humanities and when they get a job on their mom & pop's bussines they become run-of-the-mill liberals or libertarians.

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