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Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Balkan Beast on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:16 am

I know this sounds contradictory but I would like to hear what others think about this.

I feel that a Socialist Nationalist country would not be able to survive for awhile(unless it was a major power already) because of foreign influence. It is well known that other nations will gladly meddle in other nation's affairs to pust government's which they do not like.
So I think it would be necessary for such a nation to both encourage, and supply Revolutionary socialist/nationalist movements in other countries similar to what Lenin,Stalin, and Mao did with limited success.

I do not intend for this to eventually develop into "no maps", national borders should be kept.

This can be expanded on of course, this is really just a generalization.
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Red Aegis on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:46 pm

I agree with this. I think that the practice of "exporting" revolution should be followed not only on self-preservatory principles but for class-solidarity reasons.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:29 pm

Most definitely. As soon as a newly born State is formed on this continent, and we have stable system, we should support as many revolutionary Socialist-Nationalist movements abroad as we can.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Red Aegis on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:33 pm

I agree with the gist of what you're saying PR but not the specifics and implications. All in all though, I think that most socialists would agree with our very general ideas put forth here.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:50 pm

Red Aegis wrote:I agree with the gist of what you're saying PR but not the specifics and implications. All in all though, I think that most socialists would agree with our very general ideas put forth here.

What do you mean, implications and specifics? I wasn't very specific.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Red Aegis on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:04 pm

You mentioned a State and donating to socialist-nationalist in a way that could be interpreted as assisting socialist-nationalists exclusively that's all.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:04 am

Balkan Beast wrote:I know this sounds contradictory but I would like to hear what others think about this.

I feel that a Socialist Nationalist country would not be able to survive for awhile(unless it was a major power already) because of foreign influence. It is well known that other nations will gladly meddle in other nation's affairs to pust government's which they do not like.
So I think it would be necessary for such a nation to both encourage, and supply Revolutionary socialist/nationalist movements in other countries similar to what Lenin,Stalin, and Mao did with limited success.

I do not intend for this to eventually develop into "no maps", national borders should be kept.

This can be expanded on of course, this is really just a generalization.

What you're describing is essentially the left-wing nationalist position on the national question: socialism cannot exist in isolation, thereby making a policy of socialist internationalism an imperative. However, this socialist internationalism is not intended for purposes of ethnocultural homogenization or to infringe upon the right of nations to self-determination.

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:28 am

Red Aegis wrote:You mentioned a State and donating to socialist-nationalist in a way that could be interpreted as assisting socialist-nationalists exclusively that's all.

Well, I am not going to be wasting resources helping useless cosmopolitans. Same as I wouldn't waste resources helping stupid reactionaries.

I would probably urge Europeans Strasserists and the more nationally minded Communist/Syndicalist parties, as well as all the National Bolsheviks to form a unified front of some kind with the promise of financial aid and/or military aid in their revolutions. Hopefully the Strasserists would not make the same mistakes in the past though and fail to come together with other socialists when it matters.

That is also highly unlikely though, considering I think the Europeans and/or Russians will have a socialist revolution way before us.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Balkan Beast on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:40 am

Red Aegis wrote:You mentioned a State and donating to socialist-nationalist in a way that could be interpreted as assisting socialist-nationalists exclusively that's all.

This is what I was implying for the most part, helping cosmopolitans would be beneficial at most only in the short term. Successful Cosmopolitan revolutions would eventually lead to conflicts between Cosmopolitan & Nationalist nations or at least a situation similar to the relations between USSR and Yugoslavia/China.

Exporting Socialism would require a nation that is strong economically as well as militarily(or at least formidable enough to combat counter-revolutaries, and the possibility of foreign invasion). So I have no doubt a socialist revolution would need to occur in Europe, or at least a developed nation outside of Europe like those
Socialist Nationalism is very broad, so it's not really exclusive, but it wouldn't make much sense to support groups with opposing beliefs or it could eventually come back to harm the country(Example would be Germany supplying the Bolsheviks).
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:24 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:Well, I am not going to be wasting resources helping useless cosmopolitans. Same as I wouldn't waste resources helping stupid reactionaries.

Any socialist or communist movement which supports expanding the democratic rights of their compatriots following the revolution is worthy of support. Cosmopolitanism is an utterly impotent ideology unless it's enforced by dictatorial coercion. So, even if a revolutionary organization happens to be led by a cosmopolitan vanguard, their vision will not be realized if they actually implement a genuinely democratic system in their country. The working class is not cosmopolitan, and those few individuals who profess otherwise are either mistaken, dishonest, or merely aberrations.

I would probably urge Europeans Strasserists and the more nationally minded Communist/Syndicalist parties, as well as all the National Bolsheviks to form a unified front of some kind with the promise of financial aid and/or military aid in their revolutions. Hopefully the Strasserists would not make the same mistakes in the past though and fail to come together with other socialists when it matters.

Strasserists seem far more willing to cooperate with the far right than with revolutionary socialists or communists, so I doubt they can be trusted to join in a revolutionary coalition. Most of the Left would be unwilling to associate with them anyway, for obvious reasons—but Strasserists are so numerically insignificant that it ultimately wouldn't make a difference what they decide to do.

I think the Europeans and/or Russians will have a socialist revolution way before us.

Before us? Yes. "Way before us"? I'm not so sure.

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:50 pm

Celtiberian wrote:Any socialist or communist movement which supports expanding the democratic rights of their compatriots following the revolution is worthy of support. Cosmopolitanism is an utterly impotent ideology unless it's enforced by dictatorial coercion. So, even if a revolutionary organization happens to be led by a cosmopolitan vanguard, their vision will not be realized if they actually implement a genuinely democratic system in their country. The working class is not cosmopolitan, and those few individuals who profess otherwise are either mistaken, dishonest, or merely aberrations.

I disagree. If an utterly cosmopolitan working class organization were to lead the revolution, they would be able to certainly influence national policy in whichever way they see fit either through dictatorial coercion as you said or by disseminating large amounts of cosmopolitan propaganda and thus influencing the opinion of the masses. We would only be supplying them with financial aid to make this propaganda campaign possible as well.

Strasserists seem far more willing to cooperate with the far right than with revolutionary socialists or communists, so I doubt they can be trusted to join in a revolutionary coalition. Most of the Left would be unwilling to associate with them anyway, for obvious reasons—but Strasserists are so numerically insignificant that it ultimately wouldn't make a difference what they decide to do.

I disagree again, the European Strasserists I know are highly opposed to chauvinistic nationalism and even fascism. Some even acknowledge class warfare. I will agree that they are not very large in numbers, but, it was simply sentiment implying I wanted all those who pursue a socialist-nationalist objective to be involved and happy. If the so called left is unwilling to associate with Strasserists, who have agreed to cooperation, that is their own fault. The KPD, Black Front, and National Revolutionaries (National Bolsheviks) of history are all guilty of not coming together when it matters. Strasserists refused to work with the KPD, and the KPD declined a role in the National Bolshevik's National Revolutionary Front and so fourth. Guess what? They all ended up in concentration camps or on the run from the gestapo.

Those dedicated to a truly Socialist-Nationalism should at least form a united front against reaction as well as subversive cosmopolitan elements which seek to undermine national unity - therefore the building of socialism on a national level.

Before us? Yes. "Way before us"? I'm not so sure.

Perhaps a bit of a hyperbole about the reactionary nature of major portions of the American people.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:42 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I disagree. If an utterly cosmopolitan working class organization were to lead the revolution, they would be able to certainly influence national policy in whichever way they see fit either through dictatorial coercion as you said or by disseminating large amounts of cosmopolitan propaganda and thus influencing the opinion of the masses. We would only be supplying them with financial aid to make this propaganda campaign possible as well.

Cosmopolitan propaganda has not been capable of instilling such an ethos in the masses thus far, so I see no reason to suspect it would be any different if conducted by revolutionaries. Bear in mind that I qualified my statement by stating that these socialist and communist movements would have to implement a genuinely democratic system. Such a propaganda campaign could only be established under conditions of dictatorship, and even then it would be ineffective. The only conceivable method which might be capable of destroying national sentiments within a population would be by forcing an ethnocultural homogenization through banning diverse cultures, prohibiting people of the same ethnicity from breeding with each other, and somehow eliminating the entire history of ethnocultural distinctions. It would take a very long time and an extraordinary amount of effort, and it still probably wouldn't succeed because the people simply wouldn't stand for it.

I disagree again, the European Strasserists I know are highly opposed to chauvinistic nationalism and even fascism.

Which is ironic, considering that Strasserism shares quite a lot in common with fascist philosophy.

I will agree that they are not very large in numbers, but, it was simply sentiment implying I wanted all those who pursue a socialist-nationalist objective to be involved and happy. If the so called left is unwilling to associate with Strasserists, who have agreed to cooperation, that is their own fault.

I'm sure that individual Strasserists wouldn't be rejected, but I just can't fathom Strasserist organizations peacefully cooperating with revolutionary socialist and communist organizations. Given the Strasser brothers' personal contributions to the overthrowing the Bavarian Soviet Republic and Strasserism's fascistic philosophy, it seems highly improbable.

Perhaps a bit of a hyperbole about the reactionary nature of major portions of the American people.

Even at their most reactionary periods, the American people have still overwhelmingly favored economic policies far to the Left of what is currently practiced in the United States. Material conditions worsening are the only means by which false consciousness can be overcome, regardless of the nation is question. We're currently witnessing a massive crisis of capitalism, and it may just represent the catalyst to the proletarian revolution.


Last edited by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:06 pm

Celtiberian wrote:Cosmopolitan propaganda has not been capable of instilling such an ethos in the masses thus far, so I see no reason to suspect it would be any different if conducted by revolutionaries. Bear in mind that I qualified my statement by stating that these socialist and communist movements would have to implement a genuinely democratic system. Such a propaganda campaign could only be established under conditions of dictatorship, and even then it would be ineffective. The only conceivable method which might be capable of destroying national sentiments within a population would be by forcing an ethnocultural homogenization through banning diverse cultures, prohibiting people of the same ethnicity from breeding with each other, and somehow eliminating the entire history of ethnocultural distinctions. It would take a very long time and an extraordinary amount of effort, and it still probably wouldn't succeed because the people simply wouldn't stand for it.

I do agree to an extent, that most people will never agree to the dissolution of their nation out right. I still distrust many cosmopolitan elements within the organizations themselves and would never want to supply them with money so that they could espouse cosmopolitan views to the public. There always has to be a party to establish a firm ideology of the revolution, and if direct democracy is established, it is still quite easy for that party to sway public opinion. It is also very important that we educate the people. If absolutely everything was on the masses than there would be absolutely no need for a party, party program, or ideology whatsoever.

For example, the American Trotsky Party "Socialist Equality Party" is absolutely insistent about loosening boarders and granting amnesty. As much as I stand in solidarity with portions of the Mexican (and South American population in general) affected negatively by American capitalists, there is better ways to deal with the problem and such parties do not even deserve valuable resources.

On the contrary, I actively support nationalism and self determination and would seek to make it an integral part of the party creed. If the masses agree, as many here contend, they will follow.

Which is ironic, considering that Strasserism shares quite a lot in common with fascist philosophy.

As one who has done time calling himself a Strasserist and as one who has studied Strasser's works, I feel this is a misrepresentation of Strasser and Strasserism. Strasser was quite clear in his opposition to fascism and many Strasserists today are still opposed to fascism. Now, what I do disagree with is their liberal calling for "a State neither of the bourgeoisie or proletariat", however that can not be compared with the fascist conception thereof as Strasser did not want an all powerful authoritarian State to enforce that cooperation.

I'm sure that individual Strasserists wouldn't be rejected, but I just can't fathom Strasserist organizations peacefully cooperating with revolutionary socialist and communist organizations. Given the Strasser brothers' personal contributions to the overthrowing the Bavarian Soviet Republic and Strasserism's fascistic philosophy, it seems highly improbable.

Wasn't the Bavarian Soviet Republic just some Social-Democrat uprising anyway? I had read that Eisner made the uprising easier by promising business owners respect of private property. On Spartacus actually. Not that the Strasser brothers were overthrowing it from a leftist perspective, but if that is the truth, the left should hardly be mourning its loss.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:30 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I still distrust many cosmopolitan elements within the organizations themselves and would never want to supply them with money so that they could espouse cosmopolitan views to the public.

I seriously doubt such a situation will ever present itself, as no socialist or communist mass movement in history has ever been avowedly cosmopolitan. As I often stress, the contemporary Left's infatuation with fringe identity politics and cosmopolitanism are among the leading reasons radical movements have fallen into disrepute in recent years. The only organizations which will be capable of amassing a substantial following in the coming years will either be left-wing nationalist or, at the very least, not committed to any particular stance on the national question.

if direct democracy is established, it is still quite easy for that party to sway public opinion.

You seem to believe that the people are far more impressionable than they actually are. If the sophisticated forms of psychological manipulation currently practiced within bourgeois states have proven to be unsuccessful in socially engineering the people into becoming more tolerant of ethnocultural homogenization, what makes you think that cosmopolitan socialists will be any more successful in that pursuit?

It is also very important that we educate the people.

Only with respect to understanding the central importance of the class struggle.

If absolutely everything was on the masses than there would be absolutely no need for a party, party program, or ideology whatsoever.

The task of a revolutionary is solely to facilitate the emancipation of the working class. Anything beyond this represents an indefensible attempt to mold people into conforming with someone's arbitrary utopian vision.

For example, the American Trotsky Party "Socialist Equality Party" is absolutely insistent about loosening boarders and granting amnesty.

Which is precisely why the Socialist Equality Party will remain a marginal group, ridiculed by the majority of working people.

As one who has done time calling himself a Strasserist and as one who has studied Strasser's works, I feel this is a misrepresentation of Strasser and Strasserism.

I too have studied Strasserism thoroughly, and noting that the ideology shares quite a lot in common with fascist philosophy is not a "misrepresentation." Like fascists, Strasserists adhere to the cyclical theory of history (as expounded by Oswald Spengler); disregard the revolutionary potential of class struggle and believe that (their) "socialism" will instead be achieved by way of ethical persuasion and reforms from above; adhere to idealism and disparage materialism; believe in elevating a "natural aristocracy" to positions of power and prominence; etc. (There's a reason the Strasser brothers were once members of the NSDAP.)

Wasn't the Bavarian Soviet Republic just some Social-Democrat uprising anyway? I had read that Eisner made the uprising easier by promising business owners respect of private property.

The Bavarian Soviet Republic was established by a coalition of leftist organizations. Upon its founding, "Everything was declared the property of the community." Kurt Eisner may have once said that private property rights would be upheld, but communist policies were being formulated by the regime by April, 1919:

"Advices of April 7-9 indicated that events in Bavaria were moving through a bewildering overturn of society. Further plans of the new Soviet Government included socialization of the theatre, forcible opening of all closed stores to the service of the people, forcible reduction of rent and food prices, and the seizure of all fortunes over 10,000 marks. The immediate creation of a Red Army was ordered."
Current History, Vol. X, p. 232.

The Strasser brothers joined the Freikorps for the explicit purpose of overthrowing the Bavarian Soviet because they viewed it as a 'Jewish creation' in the service of Bolshevism. We'll never know how radical the regime might have gotten, as it wasn't provided with an adequate opportunity to develop.

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—J. B. S. Haldane Hammer Sickle

"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:00 am

Celtiberian wrote:I seriously doubt such a situation will ever present itself, as no socialist or communist mass movement in history has ever been avowedly cosmopolitan. As I often stress, the contemporary Left's infatuation with fringe identity politics and cosmopolitanism are among the leading reasons radical movements have fallen into disrepute in recent years. The only organizations which will be capable of amassing a substantial following in the coming years will either be left-wing nationalist or, at the very least, not committed to any particular stance on the national question.

If they do not ever stand a chance of amassing public support than that is just one more reason why they do not deserve funds. Hence, why cosmopolitan groups are not worthy of financial support and valuable resources that could be invested in domestic socialism otherwise.

You seem to believe that the people are far more impressionable than they actually are. If the sophisticated forms of psychological manipulation currently practiced within bourgeois states have proven to be unsuccessful in socially engineering the people into becoming more tolerant of ethnocultural homogenization, what makes you think that cosmopolitan socialists will be any more successful in that pursuit?

I actually believe that it has been more highly successful than you claim. In modern day America, we have two camps who have seem to have grown from bourgeois thought. Those who espouse reactionary chauvinistic forms of racism and those who think identity is relatively insignificant and we are all just capable of holding hands in a multi-racial utopia.

Only with respect to understanding the central importance of the class struggle.

And on the need for a national unity and to raise the proletariat culturally as well. You could say these are all arbitrary values, then again, so is the proletariat's emancipation. Even the form of direct democracy we espouse is a completely arbitrary value. The masses themselves will vote democratically based on values which are again, totally arbitrary. If ideology didn't exist beyond class struggle there would be absolutely no need for different ideologies and/or political parties.

I too have studied Strasserism thoroughly, and noting that the ideology shares quite a lot in common with fascist philosophy is not a "misrepresentation." Like fascists, Strasserists adhere to the cyclical theory of history (as expounded by Oswald Spengler); disregard the revolutionary potential of class struggle and believe that (their) "socialism" will instead be achieved by way of ethical persuasion and reforms from above; adhere to idealism and disparage materialism; believe in elevating a "natural aristocracy" to positions of power and prominence; etc. (There's a reason the Strasser brothers were once members of the NSDAP.)

Strasser actually subscribed to a different idea, called "Triune Polarity". It is neither the materialist progressive or cyclical theory of history of Spengler, though I will admit I see nothing wrong with reading Spengler. Also it is worthwhile to note Strasser believed in a conservative realism in which he gave plenty of credit to materialism, and backed the idea that material conditions needed to reinforce his ideals.


The Strasser brothers joined the Freikorps for the explicit purpose of overthrowing the Bavarian Soviet because they viewed it as a 'Jewish creation' in the service of Bolshevism. We'll never know how radical the regime might have gotten, as it wasn't provided with an adequate opportunity to develop.

I know full well why they did it. I do think it is a shame they were misguided in many ways. I think it is worthwhile to note however:

1.) Strasser's ideas were not full formulated at the time; and he was just returning from war himself and probably not ready to put down the gun.
2.) It would be absolutely silly for past events to be the deciding factor of whether or not a common front is formed today.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:06 am

Pantheon Rising wrote:If they do not ever stand a chance of amassing public support than that is just one more reason why they do not deserve funds. Hence, why cosmopolitan groups are not worthy of financial support and valuable resources that could be invested in domestic socialism otherwise.

As I alluded to in my first response, members of an organization's vanguard may indeed espouse certain cosmopolitan positions and nevertheless be capable of securing adequate support. Take the Bolsheviks, for example. Lenin and Stalin can be said to be cosmopolitans insofar as they ultimately believed that communism would generate a global monoculture. However, they amassed a following in spite of this because, apart from opposing the continuation of the First World War and demanding that all power be given to the Soviets, they also supported a policy of national self-determination which resonated with many of the minority nationalities of the Tsarist empire. Lenin and Stalin's cosmopolitanism thus wasn't of immediate concern to the people because it was merely theoretical, was alleged to materialize at some point in the distant future, and was not stressed in any of the party's public statements to the people. In other words, a party which upholds a policy on the national question somewhat similar to the Bolsheviks' may still be capable of leading a revolution, and they would be deserving of material assistance provided they are serious about constructing democratic institutions following the overthrow of the dictatorship of capital. An organization which constantly emphasizes cosmopolitanism and runs on a platform which undermines national self-determination (as many contemporary socialist and communist parties do), on the other hand, wouldn't have any chance at succeeding.

I actually believe that it has been more highly successful than you claim. In modern day America, we have two camps who have seem to have grown from bourgeois thought. Those who espouse reactionary chauvinistic forms of racism and those who think identity is relatively insignificant and we are all just capable of holding hands in a multi-racial utopia.

The individuals who espouse cosmopolitanism today can be broadly categorized as follows:

1.) Members of the bourgeois and coordinator classes who not only don't have to compete in a labor market replete with cheap foreign labor, but whose only contact with different cultures comes by way of occasionally dealing with their maid(s) and/or janitorial staff, or in their various luxurious vacations abroad. The bourgeoisie's economic incentive to import foreign workers compels many of them to conjure up humanistic excuses for the policy, with cosmopolitanism being most convenient.
2.) Idealists who have never lived in a multicultural area.
3.) Those who are under the impression that national sentiments are a byproduct of class society which will be overcome once the substructure of society is sufficiently altered (e.g., Luxemburgists and Marxist-Leninists).
4.) Aberrations who genuinely do possess a 'global conscious'—by which I mean, they have no affinity toward any ethnic or cultural group(s) and desire the emergence of a vapid monoculture.

All of the above are statistically insignificant. Nationalistic sentiments have not declined in recent decades, and, in certain parts of the world, have even increased in intensity. In Europe, for example, cosmopolitan social engineering is more thoroughly practiced than anywhere else and yet cosmopolitanism is still only espoused by a minor fraction of the population. A relatively high percentage of people polled may answer in the affirmative to questions such as, "Is diversity a strength?" but acknowledging that diversity itself is desirable is the exact opposite of the cosmopolitan vision of ethnocultural homogeneity.

And on the need for a national unity and to raise the proletariat culturally as well.

Neither of those are necessary to emphasize. The workers understand that their comrades in the revolution will be their compatriots; it wouldn't even occur to them to think otherwise. As for 'raising the proletariat culturally,' socialism itself will have that effect. Criticizing the proletariat's current leisure-time activities as being frivolous nonsense, or what have you, will only be met with hostility.

You could say these are all arbitrary values, then again, so is the proletariat's emancipation. Even the form of direct democracy we espouse is a completely arbitrary value.

There's a significant difference: capitalism and depriving people of the ability to control their own lives literally results in poverty, misery, and death. Let's no pretend as if these other values you champion are anywhere near as important as working class emancipation.

Strasser actually subscribed to a different idea, called "Triune Polarity". It is neither the materialist progressive or cyclical theory of history of Spengler

The Triune Polarity is in fact derived from Spengler's cyclical theory of history, as Strasser himself fully acknowledged—though it is 'supplemented' with a few of Strasser's own contrivances. It is also sheer idealist twaddle:

"From the foregoing dissertations it will have become plain that we accept the validity of Oswald Spengler's brilliantly formulated law of the rise and fall of the cultural circle—in this instance the western cultural circle; and that we perceive therein a great law of motion of all organic life, the law of birth, maturity, and death.

"If we study more closely the ideas and the forms of these various epochs, we discover the remarkable fact that we only have to do with two conflicting ideas, two opposing poles, between which the pendulum of history swings unceasingly: the idea of constraint, and the idea of unconstraint; or, we may say, conservatism and liberalism.

"In accordance with the three-dimensional character of all organic life in body, mind, and soul (the bodily plane representing the relation of human beings to things; the mental plane, the relation of human beings to one another; and the soul plane, the relation of man to God), each of these ideas manifests itself equably and simultaneously upon these three planes of life
."
Strasser, Otto. Germany Tomorrow, pp. 121-124 (emphasis added).

But let's not derail this thread into yet another debate on Strasserist philosophy. Other threads exist for that purpose.

It would be absolutely silly for past events to be the deciding factor of whether or not a common front is formed today.

Using that logic, the Left shouldn't be averse to allying with Hitlerian National Socialists either.

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:42 pm

Celtiberian wrote:As I alluded to in my first response, members of an organization's vanguard may indeed espouse certain cosmopolitan positions and nevertheless be capable of securing adequate support. Take the Bolsheviks, for example. Lenin and Stalin can be said to be cosmopolitans insofar as they ultimately believed that communism would generate a global monoculture. However, they amassed a following in spite of this because, apart from opposing the continuation of the First World War and demanding that all power be given to the Soviets, they also supported a policy of national self-determination which resonated with many of the minority nationalities of the Tsarist empire. Lenin and Stalin's cosmopolitanism thus wasn't of immediate concern to the people because it was merely theoretical, was alleged to materialize at some point in the distant future, and was not stressed in any of the party's public statements to the people. In other words, a party which upholds a policy on the national question somewhat similar to the Bolsheviks' may still be capable of leading a revolution, and they would be deserving of material assistance provided they are serious about constructing democratic institutions following the overthrow of the dictatorship of capital. An organization which constantly emphasizes cosmopolitanism and runs on a platform which undermines national self-determination (as many contemporary socialist and communist parties do), on the other hand, wouldn't have any chance at succeeding.

I will agree to an extent, though I think Stalin's vision of nation's merging and cosmopolitanism went down the drain very early on after Lenin's death. He did hint that he agreed with Marx that nations would whither away in his early essay "Marxism and the National Question", but I believe he had to adapt those views very quickly once coming to power and soon became nationalistic in order to establish socialism in one country. Despite his opposition to cultural-autonomy which I favor in the USA, I think Stalin could be seen as a Socialist-Nationalist figurehead much like the patriotic Ho Chi Minh.

The individuals who espouse cosmopolitanism today can be broadly categorized as follows:

I know where they originate from, I was simply trying to state that they are indeed breaking into two camps.

All of the above are statistically insignificant. Nationalistic sentiments have not declined in recent decades, and, in certain parts of the world, have even increased in intensity. In Europe, for example, cosmopolitan social engineering is more thoroughly practiced than anywhere else and yet cosmopolitanism is still only espoused by a minor fraction of the population. A relatively high percentage of people polled may answer in the affirmative to questions such as, "Is diversity a strength?" but acknowledging that diversity itself is desirable is the exact opposite of the cosmopolitan vision of ethnocultural homogeneity.

I will agree, nationalist sentiments are on the rise. I suppose it just worries me because all the reactionaries can capitalize on national pride and sentiment and totally degrade socialism. Many of them just getting involved are very well meaning people interested in preserving their nation and cultural identity, yet, they remain hostile to us "reds" for launching class war and such.

Neither of those are necessary to emphasize. The workers understand that their comrades in the revolution will be their compatriots; it wouldn't even occur to them to think otherwise. As for 'raising the proletariat culturally,' socialism itself will have that effect. Criticizing the proletariat's current leisure-time activities as being frivolous nonsense, or what have you, will only be met with hostility.

Yes, I don't mean to criticize the current leisure activities. I do think they need to be radically changed though and I think socialism will help with this.

There's a significant difference: capitalism and depriving people of the ability to control their own lives literally results in poverty, misery, and death. Let's no pretend as if these other values you champion are anywhere near as important as working class emancipation.

Who says that workers don't deserve poverty, misery, and death? Obviously we don't think they do and as socialists we have taken up the banner to fight against that, but where does emancipation find its justification? Surely we can give the rational answer of "the greatest good for the greatest number", but that again has no justification as to WHY there should be the greatest good for the greatest number.

But let's not derail this thread into yet another debate on Strasserist philosophy. Other threads exist for that purpose.

I agree. I actually regret mentioning Strasserism in this thread, but, I think we can drop it.

Using that logic, the Left shouldn't be averse to allying with Hitlerian National Socialists either.

Well, without trying to further the Strasserism debate, Strasserism and Hitlerism are ideologically much different so there exists more ideological common ground between the two. I am of the opinion that Strasserists, National Bolsheviks, and the KPD should have all come together to take down the Hitler regime and establish socialism but petty bickering always gets in the way I suppose.

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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:25 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I will agree to an extent, though I think Stalin's vision of nation's merging and cosmopolitanism went down the drain very early on after Lenin's death. He did hint that he agreed with Marx that nations would whither away in his early essay "Marxism and the National Question", but I believe he had to adapt those views very quickly once coming to power and soon became nationalistic in order to establish socialism in one country. Despite his opposition to cultural-autonomy which I favor in the USA, I think Stalin could be seen as a Socialist-Nationalist figurehead much like the patriotic Ho Chi Minh.

What happened after Lenin's death was Stalin's decision to embark on a policy of Russian cultural imperialism—what Lenin had termed "rusotiapstvo" (mindless Russian chauvinism). Though Lenin failed to uphold the principles of the very self-determination theory he had formulated, Stalin went much further in suppressing minority cultures in the USSR. In this sense, Stalin can be likened to a reactionary nationalist. Whether or not he espoused the withering away of nations thesis merely for Machiavellian purposes is impossible to know.

I will agree, nationalist sentiments are on the rise. I suppose it just worries me because all the reactionaries can capitalize on national pride and sentiment and totally degrade socialism.

Not during a period of economic unrest. Virtually every reactionary nationalist party which has gained any traction in history has had to run on a progressive economic platform to some degree. They also use national minority groups as scapegoats in order to deflect attention away from the national bourgeoisie, but that cannot be made to work forever. As you know, the contradictions of capital are such that national capitalism is impossible to maintain for an appreciable amount of time, thereby ensuring that the class struggle will persist.

Many of them just getting involved are very well meaning people interested in preserving their nation and cultural identity, yet, they remain hostile to us "reds" for launching class war and such.

The average American today is a mildly reactionary nationalist with no (or very little) knowledge of socialism or communism. I agree that reactionary nationalist ideologues despise the class struggle, but they are a marginal element in society and I doubt they'll ever amass a significant following—most people simply aren't interested in leading a life of extreme race hatred, and aren't particularly interested in imperial ventures either. I don't believe that it will be difficult to channel their nationalist sentiments into the pursuit of socialist objectives.

Who says that workers don't deserve poverty, misery, and death? Obviously we don't think they do and as socialists we have taken up the banner to fight against that, but where does emancipation find its justification? Surely we can give the rational answer of "the greatest good for the greatest number", but that again has no justification as to WHY there should be the greatest good for the greatest number.

In an abstract sense, nothing is to say that anyone is not deserving of poverty, misery, or death. But the reality of the situation is that people possess an immutable will to survive and control their own lives. Classes, however, possess conflicting interests, which inevitably generates a struggle. So, the bourgeoisie will either find a way to keep the proletariat eternally oppressed, or the workers will eventually succeed in abolishing class society.

Strasserism and Hitlerism are ideologically much different so there exists more ideological common ground between the two.

I disagree. Philosophically, Strasserism and Hitlerism share far more in common with one another than Strasserism has with, say, Marxism. But we should refrain from delving into this issue any further on this thread.

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:20 am

Celtiberian wrote:What happened after Lenin's death was Stalin's decision to embark on a policy of Russian cultural imperialism—what Lenin had termed "rusotiapstvo" (mindless Russian chauvinism). Though Lenin failed to uphold the principles of the very self-determination theory he had formulated, Stalin went much further in suppressing minority cultures in the USSR. In this sense, Stalin can be likened to a reactionary nationalist. Whether or not he espoused the withering away of nations thesis merely for Machiavellian purposes is impossible to know.

I do not think that he actively oppressed minority cultures, but he did put down minor revolts which were deemed counter revolutionary. I'd like to believe these actions had to be taken, especially as National Socialism was gaining power in Europe. Stalin knew the USSR was going to have to go to war which is why he tried to get the Finnish nation's help, when they refused, tried to capture many ports in Finland so they would not be accessible to Germany. Although I disagree with some of his actions and cultural policies he does have a certain "Will to Power" aspect about him that was necessary to save the USSR.

The average American today is a mildly reactionary nationalist with no (or very little) knowledge of socialism or communism. I agree that reactionary nationalist ideologues despise the class struggle, but they are a marginal element in society and I doubt they'll ever amass a significant following—most people simply aren't interested in leading a life of extreme race hatred, and aren't particularly interested in imperial ventures either. I don't believe that it will be difficult to channel their nationalist sentiments into the pursuit of socialist objectives.

You may be right in that it will be easy to channel national sentiments into socialist objectives, though, I do think the average American today is rather apolitical.

In an abstract sense, nothing is to say that anyone is not deserving of poverty, misery, or death. But the reality of the situation is that people possess an immutable will to survive and control their own lives. Classes, however, possess conflicting interests, which inevitably generates a struggle. So, the bourgeoisie will either find a way to keep the proletariat eternally oppressed, or the workers will eventually succeed in abolishing class society.

Perhaps. Though as long as capitalism is able to keep people with a comfy cozy lifestyle I don't see any abolition coming. That is not to say we aren't witnessing a decline of living standards today and an increase in revolutionary sentiment. I merely mean to imply if the bourgeoisie weren't so damn greedy perhaps capitalism could sustain itself.


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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Celtiberian on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:10 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:Although I disagree with some of his actions and cultural policies he does have a certain "Will to Power" aspect about him that was necessary to save the USSR.


He was partially responsible for putting the USSR in jeopardy in the first place by pursuing the "social fascism" propaganda to the point that the KPD actually helped enable Hitler to come to power by way of their refusal to cooperate with the SPD during the federal election of 1933. (The NSDAP may have won regardless, but it was an irresponsible policy nonetheless.) And while Joseph Stalin deserves credit for facilitating much progress in the Soviet Union during his administration, it's inappropriate to overlook the unnecessary suffering he was also responsible for—and the same applies to Lenin and Trotsky, for that matter.

You may be right in that it will be easy to channel national sentiments into socialist objectives, though, I do think the average American today is rather apolitical.

Certainly. To the extent Americans are political at all, they are overwhelmingly reactionary anyway. But this is symptomatic of the manner by which ideology is produced and disseminated under capitalism. As Karl Marx argued, "the ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas." That is why idealism is such a futile exercise. Ethical socialists and communists are essentially engaged in an ideological struggle which cannot be won because the people simply don't have the incentive to investigate these ideas sufficiently enough while things are still going relatively well economically. Understanding scientific socialism is of immense importance to activists, in my opinion, precisely because it emphasizes how crucial material conditions are for the revolutionary project.

I merely mean to imply if the bourgeoisie weren't so damn greedy perhaps capitalism could sustain itself.

Not all bourgeois individuals are greedy. Their position as capitalists compels them to behave in such a manner simply because that's required for an enterprise to survive in a competitive market economy. Perhaps people who are already extraordinarily greedy are generally more successful as capitalists relative to those who are forced to conform to that institutional pressure, I honestly don't know.

Having said that, I disagree with the notion that capitalism could be sustainable if only the bourgeoisie could be made to cooperate with labor—such is the class collaborationist position. This presupposes that capitalism can be in a state of equilibrium provided certain conditions are met. However, the reality of economic crises is that they are endemic to the capitalist mode of production itself. They aren't the result of, say, income inequality; they emerge from the falling rate of profit, which cannot be remedied exogenously.


Last edited by Celtiberian on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:08 pm; edited 3 times in total

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Nationalist Internationalism

Post by Pantheon Rising on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:02 pm

I will not attempt to refute the above because for the most part I am in agreement. Stalin was definitely not perfect like many Internet NazBols rant about, I don't think they exist off the net though.

Class war is also really the only way to launch a socialist platform so I am in agreement there, and it is one reason I turned down the ideology dubbed Strasserism while still maintaining some respect for the individual himself.

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