Socialist Economy Poll

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Preferred Socialist Economy in Post-Revolution Society

41% 41% 
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14% 14% 
[ 4 ]
31% 31% 
[ 9 ]
14% 14% 
[ 4 ]
0% 0% 
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Total Votes : 29

Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Iron Vanguard on Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:37 am

What is your preferred key principle of organizing a socialist Economy? Please share.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Pantheon Rising on Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:43 am

I voted Market Socialism only because I disagree with state socialism. I think market socialism with a transition to a DECENTRALIZED planning would be the best. I don't think too much power lying with one central authority is good.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by RedSun on Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:39 pm

I voted for Syndicalism because it encompasses both market socialism and democratic planning. I currently favour market socialism, but I am leaning towards the transitional market-socialism-to-parecon idea as I learn more about Michael Albert's ideas (though I still have some questions I need settled before I give the idea my full support).

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Balkan Beast on Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:12 pm

I support State socialism, but I recognize that corruption and mismanagement (depends on who is holding the reigns of power of course) are major problems with such a system.
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Pantheon Rising on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:16 pm

Balkan Beast wrote:I support State socialism, but I recognize that corruption and mismanagement (depends on who is holding the reigns of power of course) are major problems with such a system.

You are aware that Strasser warned against this right?

The repudiation of State capitalism and State socialism is one of the most marked characteristics of German socialism.
Otto Strasser, Germany Tomorrow

I think state socialism is just as bad as capitalism as it fails to provide true common ownership of productive forces and only creates a new class of bureaucrats and managers.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Iron Vanguard on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:02 pm

RedSun wrote:I voted for Syndicalism because it encompasses both market socialism and democratic planning. I currently favour market socialism, but I am leaning towards the transitional market-socialism-to-parecon idea as I learn more about Michael Albert's ideas (though I still have some questions I need settled before I give the idea my full support).

I too chose Syndicalism. While the economy is centrally directed and planned with the big picture in mind, management decisions rest with the individual syndicates, excluding decisions that could compromise worker control over the means of production. The state's role would be to direct, regulate and guide the "unions", while the workers themselves, not bureaucrats, actually command the industry.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Anarcho-Edge on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:34 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I think state socialism is just as bad as capitalism as it fails to provide true common ownership of productive forces and only creates a new class of bureaucrats and managers.

I agree,which is I chose Anarchism and its variants.I support common ownership in a Libertarian Communist society
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by DSN on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:59 pm

When I hear central planning I'm used to hearing it in the sense of setting up a society ready to transition to full communism, so my first instinct was to pick central planning. I realise now the question was more to the point than I thought it was, so I'll go for whatever the hell a classless, stateless society with the workers in control comes under in the poll.


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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by GF on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:39 pm

Glad to see no one voted for China like mixed economy Very Happy

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade Tito on Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:31 pm

I'm a Titoist so I voted Market Socialism.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:05 am

I selected syndicalism, as the participatory socialism I advocate can be viewed as a fully developed model of syndicalism.

Godfaesten wrote:Glad to see no one voted for China like mixed economy Very Happy

I'm baffled as to how anyone could seriously believe that contemporary China represents a form of socialism at all. "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is merely a euphemism for authoritarian capitalism. None of the laws on workers' self-management are currently practiced in China, and the nation has deteriorated into the world's foremost sweatshop since the commencement of Deng Xiaoping's counter-revolution.


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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:15 am

China practices strict state capitalism. It is effectively a bourgeois state, and the fact that it is nominally ruled by the "Communist" Party only lends the situation an aura of wry humor.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade_Joe on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:54 pm

I believe in market socialism only as a transitional stage to the planned economy pretty much like NEP in USSR and only for the countries which never went through the capitalist phase.
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Celtiberian on Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:00 am

Comrade_Joe wrote:I believe in market socialism only as a transitional stage to the planned economy pretty much like NEP in USSR and only for the countries which never went through the capitalist phase.

Lenin's New Economic Policy is more aptly described as 'state capitalism'—due to the fact it's a combination of nationalizing the commanding heights of the economy and retaining private capitalist enterprise in all remaining industries. Market socialism is something else entirely.

Two models of market socialism currently exist. The first was theorized by Oskar Lange in 1936, and it was basically a form of central planning which featured mechanisms for mimicking market price signals, so as to rationally allocate resources between socialized industries. The second form of market socialism is much older and originated in the writings of Thomas Hodgskin, John Francis Bray, and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. In this model, workers' self-management replaces bourgeois ownership and control of enterprises, finance is collectivized, and firms continue to produce in competitive markets. (The latter model was practiced in Tito's Yugoslavia, post-1950; Syndicalist Spain, to varying degrees; The Ukrainian Free Territory; etc.)

I agree that market socialism is most practical as a transnational stage between capitalism and a fully planned socialist economy. Nevertheless, I hold no antipathy toward those comrades who consider it a desire end in itself.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade_Joe on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:44 pm

Celtiberian wrote:Lenin's New Economic Policy is more aptly described as 'state capitalism'—due to the fact it's a combination of nationalizing the commanding heights of the economy and retaining private capitalist enterprise in all remaining industries. Market socialism is something else entirely.

Two models of market socialism currently exist. The first was theorized by Oskar Lange in 1936, and it was basically a form of central planning which featured mechanisms for mimicking market price signals, so as to rationally allocate resources between socialized industries. The second form of market socialism is much older and originated in the writings of Thomas Hodgskin, John Francis Bray, and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. In this model, workers' self-management replaces bourgeois ownership and control of enterprises, finance is collectivized, and firms continue to produce in competitive markets. (The latter model was practiced in Tito's Yugoslavia, post-1950; Syndicalist Spain, to varying degrees; The Ukrainian Free Territory; etc.)

I agree that market socialism is most practical as a transnational stage between capitalism and a fully planned socialist economy. Nevertheless, I hold no antipathy toward those comrades who consider it a desire end in itself.

I think it's right to consider NEP as market socialism since you had private enterprise and market exchange. Look:

"(NEP) It is being recognized that the Soviet experiment in market socialism, roughly. I921-27"

Market Orientation of State Enterprises during Nep
V. N. Bandera
Soviet Studies
Vol. 22, No. 1 (Jul., 1970), pp. 110-121

I also found another similar statements. If you want i can transcribe them all.

State capitalism is consider the model which Stalin adopted in 1928, the planned economy and its five-years plans.
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Admin on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:39 pm

Comrade_Joe wrote:I think it's right to consider NEP as market socialism since you had private enterprise and market exchange. Look:

"(NEP) It is being recognized that the Soviet experiment in market socialism, roughly. I921-27"

Market Orientation of State Enterprises during Nep
V. N. Bandera
Soviet Studies
Vol. 22, No. 1 (Jul., 1970), pp. 110-121

I also found another similar statements. If you want i can transcribe them all.

State capitalism is consider the model which Stalin adopted in 1928, the planned economy and its five-years plans.

Market socialism has come to denote a number of vastly different economic models, which doesn't surprise me, given the inherent fluidity of the word 'socialism'. Let's not allow the semantics skew this discussion.

Substantively, the NEP should not and cannot be conflated with the alternative models of market socialism because its defining characteristics (save the maintenance of a market at varying levels) simply do not correspond with theirs.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade_Joe on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:55 pm

Admin wrote:Market socialism has come to denote a number of vastly different economic models, which doesn't surprise me, given the inherent fluidity of the word 'socialism'. Let's not allow the semantics skew this discussion.

Substantively, the NEP should not and cannot be conflated with the alternative models of market socialism because its defining characteristics (save the maintenance of a market at varying levels) simply do not correspond with theirs.

You talked about "alternative models of market socialism". My point is that NEP can be consider a model of market socialism. Of course, you may have more than one model as it was described above but it still market socialism.
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Admin on Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:06 pm

Comrade_Joe wrote:You talked about "alternative models of market socialism". My point is that NEP can be consider a model of market socialism. Of course, you may have more than one model as it was described above but it still market socialism.

Allow me to reiterate. My point is that you can call it 'market socialism', but you would not be describing a system similar (beyond mere superficiality) to the aforementioned (alternative) models. Once we begin describing mixed economies as manifestations of 'market socialism', we have essentially evacuated the term of any real meaning.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade_Joe on Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Admin wrote:Allow me to reiterate. My point is that you can call it 'market socialism', but you would not be describing a system similar (beyond mere superficiality) to the aforementioned (alternative) models. Once we begin describing mixed economies as manifestations of 'market socialism', we have essentially evacuated the term of any real meaning.

Do you consider China a market socialist economy?
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Admin on Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:00 pm

Comrade_Joe wrote:Do you consider China a market socialist economy?

No.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade_Joe on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:27 pm

Give me a practical example of market socialism.
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:00 am

Comrade_Joe wrote:I think it's right to consider NEP as market socialism since you had private enterprise and market exchange

A few analysts may refer to the NEP as having been "market socialism," but Lenin never did. He described the model as state capitalism, as I do:

"[T]o a certain extent, we are re-creating capitalism. We are doing this quite openly. It is state capitalism. But state capitalism in a society where power belongs to capital and state capitalism in a proletarian state, are two different concepts. In a capitalist state, state capitalism means that it is recognized by the state and controlled by it for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, and to the detriment of the proletariat. In the proletarian state, the same thing is done for the benefit of the working class, for the purpose of withstanding the as yet strong bourgeoisie, and of fighting it."
Lenin, Vladimir. Speeches at Congresses of the Communist International, p. 118.

State capitalism is consider the model which Stalin adopted in 1928, the planned economy and its five-years plans.

It's incorrect to consider centralized economic planning "state capitalism" due to the fact that no actual capitalists exist within the model. It's more accurate to refer to it as state socialism, in my opinion.

Give me a practical example of market socialism.

In my previous post, I provided the following examples: Tito's Yugoslavia, post-1950; Syndicalist Spain, to varying degrees; and the Ukrainian Free Territory.

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Isakenaz on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:28 am

Over on Revleft (a much despised forum) there has been the usual thread arguing the merits of Stalin and Trotsky, and as usual there are more than enough posts from Trotskyists attacking Stalinists (and vice versa) with both sides ably assisted by the usual non-aligned leftists. However amongst the rubbish there was one post in which the author provided an excellant summary of the decline of the left in recent years. His argument, and I quote it here, runs so;

No leftist tendencies are doing well lately. Social Democracy has just about ceased to exist, with most Social Democrats rejecting the idea of socialism altogether, "Marxism Leninism" is in terminal decline, most allegedly Trotskyist groups have been declining too, and anarchism, the default tendency leftists tend to slip into when they can't think of anything better, failed miserably in the "anti-globalization" movement of the '90s, and now has been demonstrating its basic unworkability for all the world to see in the Occupy movement.

Why is this? It's because the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 was a tremendous blow to the morale of the world working class, which it has yet to recover from, either materially or ideologically.

When and how can this be reversed? Well, class struggle inevitably bubbles up spontaneously, that's the nature of capitalism. And there has been quite a lot of class struggle lately. But it's all been quite defensive, with workers trying desperately and largely unsuccessfully to hold onto the gains of the past.

For a working class offensive, the working class needs to recover faith in the idea of socialist transformation, as otherwise workers can only just try to defend their positions in capitalist society, something getting harder and harder lately, as the world economy declines. And as long as most people still think that socialism is "an idea that they tried in Russia and didn't work," this can never happen.

And that's why arguments on Revleft always turn into Stalinism v. Trotskyism v. anarchism (the leftcoms seemingly being at this point essentially a subdivision of anarchism, at least here on Revleft).

In answer to the usual cries of the Soviet Union being nothing more than 'state-capitalism', he argues;

Well, neither Lenin nor Trotsky ever baptised the USSR as a "socialist society," that was Stalin's notion, so that's a misdirected polemical jab. It was of course Trotsky (and Zinoviev too to be fair) who were most loudly denouncing Stalin's notion of "socialism in one country."

If you can't tell the difference between a society with no unemployment, no private ownership of the means of production, no coupon clipping stockbrokers, indeed few millionaires at all, free medical care and education, and steel and autoworkers getting paid more than doctors and lawyers, and a capitalist society, well then for you "capitalism" is simply an ideological abstraction you dislike, not a material reality impoverishing the working class.

Basically, just about every element of the standard economic program of any socialist party was actually implemented in the USSR. Badly implemented, but implemented. The problem was simply and merely the absence of democracy.

Now, for an anarchist to see an absence of democracy as proof that the Soviet regime is capitalist is understandable, as anarchism is basically just democratic bourgeois liberalism taken to its logical extreme.

But for a "left communist" to call the USSR capitalist on that basis is contradictory to say the least, given that Bordiga, the most famous "left communist," rejected democracy altogether. http://www.revleft.com/vb/stalinism-trotsky-t170335/index3.html

As I've said before Revleft has little of value, most of its threads being little other than tendency wars, but every now and again there are gems worth thinking about. How do comrades here view the idea that he suggests which I have emboldened?
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Comrade_Joe on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:35 pm

Celtiberian wrote:A few analysts may refer to the NEP as having been "market socialism," but Lenin never did. He described the model as state capitalism, as I do:

"[T]o a certain extent, we are re-creating capitalism. We are doing this quite openly. It is state capitalism. But state capitalism in a society where power belongs to capital and state capitalism in a proletarian state, are two different concepts. In a capitalist state, state capitalism means that it is recognized by the state and controlled by it for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, and to the detriment of the proletariat. In the proletarian state, the same thing is done for the benefit of the working class, for the purpose of withstanding the as yet strong bourgeoisie, and of fighting it."
Lenin, Vladimir. Speeches at Congresses of the Communist International, p. 118.

You have to remind two things: first, the concept of "market socialism" didn't exist in that period. Secondly, there was no political interest by Lenin to admit that market mechanisms were introduced in the soviet economy. That is why we cannot take that Lenin speech too much seriously. Just to give you a practical example: a new bourgeoisie class emerged from NEP, the Kulaks. If there was no market involved the emergence of a new wealthy class was impossible.

It's incorrect to consider centralized economic planning "state capitalism" due to the fact that no actual capitalists exist within the model. It's more accurate to refer to it as state socialism, in my opinion.

I also don't agree 100% percent with that definition but it is true that there was an accumulation of capital by the state, isn't?

In my previous post, I provided the following examples: Tito's Yugoslavia, post-1950; Syndicalist Spain, to varying degrees; and the Ukrainian Free Territory.

Why you consider Tito's Yugoslavia market socialism and NEP state capitalism if you had market mechanisms in both systems?
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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:27 pm

Comrade_Joe wrote:You have to remind two things: first, the concept of "market socialism" didn't exist in that period.

As a matter of fact, it did. The concept dates back as early as the 1840s, with the writings of the Ricardian socialists, e.g., Thomas Hodgskin and John Francis Bray. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon further developed the idea in his theory of mutualism.

I also don't agree 100% percent with that definition but it is true that there was an accumulation of capital by the state, isn't?

Correct, but a state accumulation of capital is very different from the fundamental class process of capitalism. Just as it would be inaccurate to refer to the self-employed as being capitalists (since they do not hire and exploit wage laborers), it's inaccurate to refer to state socialism as being capitalistic. Capitalism is the combination of private ownership of the means of production, wage labor, and generalized commodity production.

Why you consider Tito's Yugoslavia market socialism and NEP state capitalism if you had market mechanisms in both systems?

Because wage labor was not permitted in Yugoslavia, nor was private ownership of capital (minor exceptions not withstanding).

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Re: Socialist Economy Poll

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