Kim Jong-il Has Died

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Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Admin on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:58 pm

Kim Jong il Has Died




(Reuters) - North Korean leader Kim Jong-il died Saturday on a train trip, a tearful state television announcer, dressed in black, reported Monday.

The announcer said that the 69-year old had died of physical and mental over-work on his way to give "field guidance."

The reclusive state had begun the process of transferring power to his son Kim Jong-un, believed to be in his late 20s.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:12 pm

What is known about Kim Jong-un's ability to govern?

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Admin on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:32 pm

RedSun wrote:What is known about Kim Jong-un's ability to govern?

Basically nothing. Regimes of that nature tend to keep issues of political succession very quiet.

Given the fact that North Korea is essentially dealing with a modern dynasty, the odds of Jong-un being an especially capable individual are not very good. Of course, that does not necessarily mean that his rule will result in some sort of calamity.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Comrade Hassan on Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:15 am

We all knew this day would come.
Korea is about to make its move in the world stage with Her new leader.
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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:42 am

R.I.P. Kim Jong il I am sure the Juche idea will love on through his son Kim Jong un.




Long live the DPRK!

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Celtiberian on Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:33 pm

It should be interesting to see the direction Kim Jong-un takes the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The nation has obviously been economically crippled since the collapse of Soviet trading bloc and the various trade embargoes imposed on the nation from the bourgeois states, so there's very little the regime can do aside from either continuing in its autarkic path or integrating itself into the world economy via reactionary neoliberal reforms.

The Juche ideology is obviously contemptible for a variety of reasons, but I would abhor seeing North Korea degrade into yet another capitalist cesspool. It would be excellent if Jong-un takes measures to democratize certain elements of the DPRK's economy and political system, but I find the possibility of the state undertaking such progressive reforms to be negligible.


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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:42 pm

From what I've heard about the ideas of Juche, it doesn't sound entirely contemptible, apart from requiring absolute loyalty to the Workers' Party of Korea and the leader thereof. I was under the impression that the issue was not faulty ideology, but the Kim family applying that ideology in the same way that Stalin applied socialism or Saddam Hussein applied Ba'athism.

EDIT: Or maybe not. Apparently in Juche the military is seen as the primary revolutionary force within the nation, not the proletariat.
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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:51 pm

RedSun wrote:From what I've heard about the ideas of Juche, it doesn't sound entirely contemptible, apart from requiring absolute loyalty to the Workers' Party of Korea and the leader thereof. I was under the impression that the issue was not faulty ideology, but the Kim family applying that ideology in the same way that Stalin applied socialism or Saddam Hussein applied Ba'athism.

EDIT: Or maybe not. Apparently in Juche the military is seen as the primary revolutionary force within the nation, not the proletariat.

In Juche military is first, and how can we expect them to take an attitude any different when they are surrounded by hostile forces? Thousands of US troops on the South Korean border?

Juche ideology was developed and by Kim Il Sung and then made the official ideology of NK by Kim Jong Il. By that time it wouldn't need to be a "revolutionary force". Juche is for Koreans and it is Korean socialism.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:27 pm

I simply dislike the attitude of the military being a revolutionary force separate from and superior to the proletariat. It seems to me that's more conducive to a military junta than a socialist state. I prefer the Strasserist attitude that the military are part of the proletariat, as signified in the symbol of the hammer and sword.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Loki on Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:30 pm



A humble tribute of mine, dedicated to Kim Jong-Il
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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by TheocWulf on Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:45 am

RedSun wrote:I simply dislike the attitude of the military being a revolutionary force separate from and superior to the proletariat. It seems to me that's more conducive to a military junta than a socialist state. I prefer the Strasserist attitude that the military are part of the proletariat, as signified in the symbol of the hammer and sword.

Of course the military should be part of the proletariat that goes without saying,But the military should be the embodyment of revolutionary/ideological spirit
The workers should follow and belive in the national ideology but for the armed forces it should be almost a religion.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:32 am

RedSun wrote:I simply dislike the attitude of the military being a revolutionary force separate from and superior to the proletariat. It seems to me that's more conducive to a military junta than a socialist state. I prefer the Strasserist attitude that the military are part of the proletariat, as signified in the symbol of the hammer and sword.

I don't think Juche separates the military from the workers, the military are the defenders of the nation thus the defend the true embodiment of the nation which is the workers. Obviously the military is not a "revolutionary" force; usually the military is the force of reaction. The North Korean revolution has already been carried out though so I do not think "Military First" places the military as a prime revolutionary force.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:14 am

What's your opinion on the other actions of the DPRK's government? I think even taking into account a certain anticommunist bias on the part of the media, their system is still clearly repressive and unsuccessful.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:38 pm

RedSun wrote:What's your opinion on the other actions of the DPRK's government? I think even taking into account a certain anticommunist bias on the part of the media, their system is still clearly repressive and unsuccessful.

I disagree. Which aspects do you consider repressive and unsuccessful?

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:49 pm

I dislike personality cults, for one thing. For another, I have yet to see a single assessment of the North Korean situation, from any outside (non-North Korean) source, that does not involve immense and unnecessary restriction upon personal freedoms, internment camps, and general mismanagement of the already flawed state socialist system leading to famine. You may cite media bias if you wish, but I see no reason to take the DPRK government's claims at face value, and I await evidence to the contrary.

What do you like about the North Korean government?

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:44 pm

RedSun wrote:I dislike personality cults, for one thing. For another, I have yet to see a single assessment of the North Korean situation, from any outside (non-North Korean) source, that does not involve immense and unnecessary restriction upon personal freedoms, internment camps, and general mismanagement of the already flawed state socialist system leading to famine. You may cite media bias if you wish, but I see no reason to take the DPRK government's claims at face value, and I await evidence to the contrary.

What do you like about the North Korean government?

What unnecessary restrictions? What internment camps? Did you ever think the autarkic nature of the system and the fact that only a couple nations including China trades with it or sends AID to be a main cause of the famines? Do you honestly think he is just sitting on a throne laughing while people die? Kim Jong Il did his best to try and meet the needs of the people, sometimes the best isn't enough.

What I love about North Korea is its nationalism, as well as its socialism. I love that North Korea, despite being under military threat and dealing with famines, maintains a cultural vitality that the west should envy. I love that North Koreans love being North Korean. I love how they dare not let the degenerate, demonic, bourgeois west in to wreck them.


Last edited by Pantheon Rising on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:52 pm

Figured this might be a good thread for anything DPRK related. Wink


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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:59 pm

Alright. That capability for nationalism is certainly a good reason.

I seem to recall the North Korean government requesting that other nations cease to send food and aid. The South Korean and occasionally the American practice of cutting off aid in order to get the government to do things are, however, reprehensible. I also refer you to the testimony of the various escaped North Koreans, especially Kim Jong-il's ex-chef, Kenji Fujimoto, in which Kim Jong-il was entirely willing to live expensively if it suited him, especially regarding food. The existence of several internment camps across North Korea is well-known. Freedom of speech and expression is restricted to an unnecessary extent, including any form of government criticism. If I'm wrong about any of these, please provide reasonable evidence and I will readily change my views.

I don't see how a less repressive (and not state socialist) government would preclude that degree of nationalism.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:19 pm

RedSun wrote:Alright. That capability for nationalism is certainly a good reason.

I seem to recall the North Korean government requesting that other nations cease to send food and aid. The South Korean and occasionally the American practice of cutting off aid in order to get the government to do things are, however, reprehensible. I also refer you to the testimony of the various escaped North Koreans, especially Kim Jong-il's ex-chef, Kenji Fujimoto, in which Kim Jong-il was entirely willing to live expensively if it suited him, especially regarding food. The existence of several internment camps across North Korea is well-known. Freedom of speech and expression is restricted to an unnecessary extent, including any form of government criticism. If I'm wrong about any of these, please provide reasonable evidence and I will readily change my views.

I don't see how a less repressive (and not state socialist) government would preclude that degree of nationalism.

I highly suggest you watch the MoaistRebel's videos he put up for DPRK week, they are full of tons of precious info.



There is seven of them total.

And another great one by the Maoistrebel about Children of the Secret State.


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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Kamil on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:04 am

Military first politics is not an original part of Juche ideology and was not articulated by Kim Il Sung, it is an expansion developed by Kim Jong Il called Songun. The Songun idea, which is particular to the imperialist epoch, asserts that the military emerges from the working class during the revolution to play the leading role in building socialism. Songun does not place the military over and above the people, but rather posits the "single-hearted unity" of the military and the people in socialist society as a counter to imperialism.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Kamil on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:05 am

http://www.korea-dpr.com/forum/?p=971

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by RedSun on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:34 pm

I've only had time to watch the first of those 2 videos, but I have to say that's far from proof of a democratic society. United Russia practises what I suspect to be a similar program of creating additional political parties that create the illusion of democratic diversity while supporting the ruling party in all things. Eyewitness accounts of North Koreans made to put on performances of idyllic daily life for the benefit of foreigners (or perhaps particularly gullible North Koreans as well) make most of the events on that video (and on the article Kamil posted) somewhat hard to believe. Read Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader by Bradley K Martin for examples.

What I'd like to see is an outside reporter doing a close examination of North Korea and proving it to be the sort of society you say it is. Hell, I'd like to do so myself. Unfortunately, most of said observers tend to have the opposite reaction; and I'm not sure that it's necessary to support the DPRK to agree with a few of its policies, e.g., its wonderfully developed sense of nationalism and any other things the government is doing right.

Does anyone else know anything about this 'Maoist Rebel' and how reliable he is? The articles on his blog regarding North Korea and other subjects seem quite interesting.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:16 pm

RedSun wrote:What I'd like to see is an outside reporter doing a close examination of North Korea and proving it to be the sort of society you say it is. Hell, I'd like to do so myself. Unfortunately, most of said observers tend to have the opposite reaction; and I'm not sure that it's necessary to support the DPRK to agree with a few of its policies, e.g., its wonderfully developed sense of nationalism and any other things the government is doing right.

I've been meaning to buy Bruce Cummings's North Korea: Another Country for some time now. It appears to be among the more objective works on the subject, so you may be interested in reading it as well.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Pantheon Rising on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:35 pm

RedSun wrote:I've only had time to watch the first of those 2 videos, but I have to say that's far from proof of a democratic society. United Russia practises what I suspect to be a similar program of creating additional political parties that create the illusion of democratic diversity while supporting the ruling party in all things. Eyewitness accounts of North Koreans made to put on performances of idyllic daily life for the benefit of foreigners (or perhaps particularly gullible North Koreans as well) make most of the events on that video (and on the article Kamil posted) somewhat hard to believe. Read Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader by Bradley K Martin for examples.

What I'd like to see is an outside reporter doing a close examination of North Korea and proving it to be the sort of society you say it is. Hell, I'd like to do so myself. Unfortunately, most of said observers tend to have the opposite reaction; and I'm not sure that it's necessary to support the DPRK to agree with a few of its policies, e.g., its wonderfully developed sense of nationalism and any other things the government is doing right.

I think this really gets down to who to trust. History is riddled full of eye witness accounts that are easily debunkable and outright absurd. Some are sane and true. Do they really have that much to gain by doing that though? Running a country, especially one in a position like North Korea, is not easy work.

I am also in your boat, I would love to go to North Korea and see just exactly how things operate myself. Being naturally suspicious of anything pro-western and bourgeois and from what research I have done I think I would learn a lot from NK and Juche.

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Re: Kim Jong-il Has Died

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I am also in your boat, I would love to go to North Korea and see just exactly how things operate myself. Being naturally suspicious of anything pro-western and bourgeois and from what research I have done I think I would learn a lot from NK and Juche.

The regime does allow people to travel to the country, though tourists are closely supervised by the state. The Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)—which is a small Stalinist organization—had recently sent one of their activists to visit the DPRK. The party organized the following lecture to discuss the trip:

PART I of VI

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"The dogma of human equality is no part of Communism . . . the formula of Communism: 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', would be nonsense, if abilities were equal."
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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
—Mikhail Bakunin Red Star
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