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Personal national identity

Post by RedSun on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:47 pm

I thought this was distinct enough from 'Race is Artificial' that it should be another topic altogether.

In my opinion, people of heterogeneous nationality (like me) should be able to decide for themselves which nationality is Their Nationality. My question is, what would you say to people who identify primarily with a nationality to which they have no genetic ties whatsoever? An example of this, albeit from a fictional novel: In the Change series of novels by S M Stirling, Frederick Thurston is an African-American but identifies strongly with the Norse way of life and religion. What would you do, especially those of you who are more racialist, if someone of a different ethnicity were to identify with your nation and desire to live with your people?
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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Pantheon Rising on Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:14 pm

RedSun wrote:I thought this was distinct enough from 'Race is Artificial' that it should be another topic altogether.

In my opinion, people of heterogeneous nationality (like me) should be able to decide for themselves which nationality is Their Nationality. My question is, what would you say to people who identify primarily with a nationality to which they have no genetic ties whatsoever? An example of this, albeit from a fictional novel: In the Change series of novels by S M Stirling, Frederick Thurston is an African-American but identifies strongly with the Norse way of life and religion. What would you do, especially those of you who are more racialist, if someone of a different ethnicity were to identify with your nation and desire to live with your people?

To comment about the African-American following the Norse/Germanic religion and way of life, I would have to say I would think it strange, but I couldn't blame him. It is a very interesting path to explore and if he wants to practice the noble spirituality and interpretation of the natural world passed down by my ancestors more power to him.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:48 pm

RedSun wrote:I thought this was distinct enough from 'Race is Artificial' that it should be another topic altogether.

In my opinion, people of heterogeneous nationality (like me) should be able to decide for themselves which nationality is Their Nationality. My question is, what would you say to people who identify primarily with a nationality to which they have no genetic ties whatsoever? An example of this, albeit from a fictional novel: In the Change series of novels by S M Stirling, Frederick Thurston is an African-American but identifies strongly with the Norse way of life and religion. What would you do, especially those of you who are more racialist, if someone of a different ethnicity were to identify with your nation and desire to live with your people?

Well if lets say a Negro thought themselves to be Hungarian then I would simply laugh my ass off and let them live in their own fantasy world. But never would I consider them to be Hungarian and there is no way in hell that Id approve of them to live in my people's land. The same goes for Romanians, Danes, Arabs, Vietnamese, Eskimos, or whatever.

Nation is a combination of blood and culture. You must either have both or you dont fit the bill. Its that simple.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Red Aegis on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:26 pm

I reject that blood has anything to do with nationality. You may have a different perspective on this subject than I do as an american, but I'd like you to tell a person with blood from all over europe where my nationality is. To put it simply, if blood has anything to do with nationality, explain americans please.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Celtiberian on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:05 pm

RedSun wrote:In my opinion, people of heterogeneous nationality (like me) should be able to decide for themselves which nationality is Their Nationality. My question is, what would you say to people who identify primarily with a nationality to which they have no genetic ties whatsoever? An example of this, albeit from a fictional novel: In the Change series of novels by S M Stirling, Frederick Thurston is an African-American but identifies strongly with the Norse way of life and religion. What would you do, especially those of you who are more racialist, if someone of a different ethnicity were to identify with your nation and desire to live with your people?

As I stated throughout the Race is Artificial thread, I'm of the opinion that, following the proletarian revolution, a policy of national self-determination should be implemented. Such a policy necessarily entails that the people themselves democratically determine what criteria they wish to base national citizenship on, and it's reasonable to suspect that the criteria will vary between each state. With respect to multiethnic individuals, there are plenty of post-colonial countries wherein such an ethnic constitution is the norm (e.g., the United States, Canada, Australia, etc.) and those can serve as areas for migratory consideration. Or, if an ethnic minority population is large enough and wishes to establish its own nation within the borders of an already existing country, it can attempt to work out an arrangement for regional autonomy or complete secession. There is also the Austro-Marxist policy, formulated by Otto Bauer, et al., of national personal autonomy, which some nations may consider adopting; Vladimir Medem explained national personal autonomy as follows:

"Let us consider the case of a country composed of several national groups, e.g. Poles, Lithuanians and Jews. Each national group would create a separate movement. All citizens belonging to a given national group would join a special organisation that would hold cultural assemblies in each region and a general cultural assembly for the whole country. The assemblies would be given financial powers of their own: either each national group would be entitled to raise taxes on its members, or the state would allocate a proportion of its overall budget to each of them. Every citizen of the state would belong to one of the national groups, but the question of which national movement to join would be a matter of personal choice and no authority would have any control over his decision. The national movements would be subject to the general legislation of the state, but in their own areas of responsibility they would be autonomous and none of them would have the right to interfere in the affairs of the others."
Minczeles, Henri. Histoire Générale du Bund, pp. 279-280.


Last edited by Celtiberian on Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:53 am; edited 2 times in total

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Personal national identity

Post by RedSun on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:46 pm

I agree with Celtiberian. As a Canadian I assert the melting pot of multiculturalism as the 'Canadian national identity', so a socialist Canada would either fragment into nation-states or become a federation.

I do reserve the right to go on summer trips to the Socialist Republic of Hungary or wherever after the revolution though. Smile

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Pantheon Rising on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:53 pm

RedSun wrote:I do reserve the right to go on summer trips to the Socialist Republic of Hungary or wherever after the revolution though. Smile

Me too! I think all of the Socialist Phalanx should go and have a par-tay at Rebel Warrior's house!


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Re: Personal national identity

Post by RedSun on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Communists: they get to party all day and night because they have no classes.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Pantheon Rising on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:04 pm

RedSun wrote:Communists: they get to party all day and night because they have no classes.

Nice. Rep for that, sir.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by RedSun on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:06 pm

Thank you.

...What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, personal national identity...

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Pantheon Rising on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:09 pm

RedSun wrote:Thank you.

...What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, personal national identity...

Oh.


Very Happy

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:21 am

Red Aegis wrote:I reject that blood has anything to do with nationality. You may have a different perspective on this subject than I do as an american, but I'd like you to tell a person with blood from all over europe where my nationality is. To put it simply, if blood has anything to do with nationality, explain americans please.

Fair enough, I understand Colonials have different opinions about nationality. To correct myself, on the European Continent ( especially in the former East Bloc), nationality is a matter of blood and culture. To be considered Hungarian ( or whatever nationality) one must be of European blood ( " White" as many call it) and ( most importantly) a native speaker of the Hungarian language. That is what I mean by blood and culture.

Non Europeans cannot be considered Hungarian simply because they are not European ( which Hungarians are by definition). On the other hand most Europeans cannot be considered Hungarian simply because they arent native speakers of the language.

If you asked any other serious European ( not some cosmopolitan ) about this matter then you would probably get the same answer I gave you ( of course its probably true that a good number of Europeans are no longer serious when it comes to the issue of nationality). Nationality, in Europe, has never meant simply owning a piece of paper that says your a member of a certain state ( at least not since the French Revolution). It has been a folkish thing for a long time and ( I hope) it shall remain that way.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am

RedSun wrote:I agree with Celtiberian. As a Canadian I assert the melting pot of multiculturalism as the 'Canadian national identity', so a socialist Canada would either fragment into nation-states or become a federation.

I do reserve the right to go on summer trips to the Socialist Republic of Hungary or wherever after the revolution though. Smile

Certainly. Tourists arent the ones I have problems with ( so long as they behave).

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:30 am

Pantheon Rising wrote:Me too! I think all of the Socialist Phalanx should go and have a par-tay at Rebel Warrior's house!


You can come. But could any of you drink a bottle of 80 proof plum brandy?



Cause we party hardcore in my homeland. Wink

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Pantheon Rising on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:25 am

Rebel Warrior 59 wrote:You can come. But could any of you drink a bottle of 80 proof plum brandy?



Cause we party hardcore in my homeland. Wink

I don't even drink beer... Embarassed

*sits in the corner with a snapple like a loner*


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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:53 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I don't even drink beer... Embarassed

*sits in the corner with a snapple like a loner*


Haha. Well in that case you can have a taste of fruit juice:


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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Nationaal-Syndicalist on Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:17 pm

RedSun wrote:In my opinion, people of heterogeneous nationality (like me) should be able to decide for themselves which nationality is Their Nationality. My question is, what would you say to people who identify primarily with a nationality to which they have no genetic ties whatsoever?

How can somebody who doesn't have any genetic ties with a certain racial group be a part of it biologically speaking? Ofcourse if you talk about identity or nationality that's certainly possible and very realistic.

An example of this, albeit from a fictional novel: In the Change series of novels by S M Stirling, Frederick Thurston is an African-American but identifies strongly with the Norse way of life and religion. What would you do, especially those of you who are more racialist, if someone of a different ethnicity were to identify with your nation and desire to live with your people?

Most racialist strive for the preservation of their race (and other races). So I think the logical answer is that they as a group wouldn't accept that, especcially not if it's in numbers that endanger the existance of that racial group. Acceptance should certainly be a collective wish and not a individual wish in my opinion.
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Re: Personal national identity

Post by RedSun on Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:08 am

Somehow I doubt that sort of thing would occur in numbers sufficient to endanger any of the nations involved. Regardless, I can understand the objection.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:47 am

RedSun wrote:I thought this was distinct enough from 'Race is Artificial' that it should be another topic altogether.

In my opinion, people of heterogeneous nationality (like me) should be able to decide for themselves which nationality is Their Nationality. My question is, what would you say to people who identify primarily with a nationality to which they have no genetic ties whatsoever? An example of this, albeit from a fictional novel: In the Change series of novels by S M Stirling, Frederick Thurston is an African-American but identifies strongly with the Norse way of life and religion. What would you do, especially those of you who are more racialist, if someone of a different ethnicity were to identify with your nation and desire to live with your people?

The needs and wants of an individual are nothing in comparison to the needs and wills of the Folk,and the Folk must be protected and preserved so in this case matey boy would not be a member of my community,but is free to live in any other community he is welcome peacefully in a world community of communitys.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:50 am

Pantheon Rising wrote:To comment about the African-American following the Norse/Germanic religion and way of life, I would have to say I would think it strange, but I couldn't blame him. It is a very interesting path to explore and if he wants to practice the noble spirituality and interpretation of the natural world passed down by my ancestors more power to him.

I concur he would be better off following his own ancestral faith,He is welcome to practice this faith just not in my community.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Pantheon Rising on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:38 am

TheocWulf wrote:The needs and wants of an individual are nothing in comparison to the needs and wills of the Folk,and the Folk must be protected and preserved so in this case matey boy would not be a member of my community,but is free to live in any other community he is welcome peacefully in a world community of communitys.

Don't the collective needs of individuals make the the needs of the community? Meeting the needs of each individual within the community would be meeting the needs of the community. I have seen people talk of a body of people as a sentient being in itself, which is not possible, unless you're speaking of a Spartan Phalanx(or a socialist one, I suppose). Doesn't really have anything to do with what RedSun said, but, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:34 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:Don't the collective needs of individuals make the the needs of the community? Meeting the needs of each individual within the community would be meeting the needs of the community. I have seen people talk of a body of people as a sentient being in itself, which is not possible, unless you're speaking of a Spartan Phalanx(or a socialist one, I suppose). Doesn't really have anything to do with what RedSun said, but, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

Of course,however whats good for the collective is more importiant than the individual wants and needs,for example a if in a well is discovered on somebodys property then the needs of community come before that individual flower bed of what ever.The Collective first then our familes in very close second followed by ourselves then as far as is possible the outside world.

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Take notice, That England is not a Free People, till the Poor that have no Land, have a free allowance to dig and labour the Commons, and so live as Comfortably as the Landlords that live in their Inclosures. For the People have not laid out their Monies, and shed their Bloud, that their Landlords, the Norman power, should still have its liberty and freedom to rule in Tyranny.-Gerrard Winstanley & 14 others TheTrue Levellers Standard Advanced - April, 1649

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Xanthochroid on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:47 am

I commend Rebel Warrior 59, TheocWulf, and Nationaal-Syndicalist

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Iron Vanguard on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:34 am

Back to the topic. With the high level of globalization in today's world, nationality has become quite hard to define. How many people do you know that are at least 80% of one nationality? Race does exist, but not as clearly defined groups. It's more of a genetic continuum. However, once globalization is destroyed following the revolution, we will see distinct ethnic groups reappear. Personally, I am an American of varied Slavic descent, and would return to eastern Europe gladly. Pass the vodka, SLAVS know how to partay

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Re: Personal national identity

Post by Xanthochroid on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:25 pm

Iron Vanguard wrote:Back to the topic. With the high level of globalization in today's world, nationality has become quite hard to define. How many people do you know that are at least 80% of one nationality? Race does exist, but not as clearly defined groups. It's more of a genetic continuum. However, once globalization is destroyed following the revolution, we will see distinct ethnic groups reappear. Personally, I am an American of varied Slavic descent, and would return to eastern Europe gladly. Pass the vodka, SLAVS know how to partay


This exactly

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