Marxism and Nationalism?!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:38 pm

Whatever, while im running programs here feeding homeless proletarians on hard times, uniting black and white workers to oppose the constant shit capitalism rams down their throat, sit on your comp and discuss nationalism and cure of immigration.

Do any of you guys even fight capitalism or just sppend your time trying to blend fascism and marxism into some batshit insane theoretical twist?

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by GF on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:51 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:Whatever, while im running programs here feeding homeless proletarians on hard times, uniting black and white workers to oppose the constant shit capitalism rams down their throat, sit on your comp and discuss nationalism and cure of immigration.

Do any of you guys even fight capitalism or just sppend your time trying to blend fascism and marxism into some batshit insane theoretical twist?

How do we blend fascism and marxism?

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Leon Mcnichol on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:51 pm

Unite black and white workers? While you tell the white workers that they "oppress" their black counterparts? iseriously doubt that.

I think you are the true racist here, that wants to wage a race war against white people. You are an embarassement for true socialists, and quite useless to the working class as a whole.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:55 pm

thats the point you fail at is cos its not possible, you just sound like fascists who hate capitalism but are white supremacists and not progressive in the slightest and use idealist and non scientific thought to wrap yourself in safe comfy social constructs.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:57 pm

Leon Mcnichol wrote:Unite black and white workers? While you tell the white workers that they "oppress" their black counterparts? iseriously doubt that.

I think you are the true racist here, that wants to wage a race war against white people. You are an embarassement for true socialists, and quite useless to the working class as a whole.

I did not say all whites opress all blacks you cunt, i said black people often suffer from racism in the white majority society.

Most white people I know agree and the fact you hate the working class also being against racism aswell as clas opression shows you for the idiotic reactionary you are and if you came into my community they would kick the shit out of you!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Leon Mcnichol on Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:03 pm

Blind and false accusations are typical of those who are incapable of any reasonable arguments.

I even doubt you were kicked out of revleft. Or maybe you did, because you are too ignorant of anything regarding Marx that even them wouldn't put up with it.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Altair on Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:03 pm

I find it amusing how this guy blatantly ignored the very informative posts made by Rev Scare and Admin so he could continue with his ranting and raving/trolling. If you are going to troll, try to be less obvious about it. Rolling Eyes

"BUT IF YOU WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MINORITIES ARE VICITIMISED BY RACISM IN SOCIETY"

Did anyone say otherwise...?

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:13 am

yes, about 4 people did and you have a thread dedicated to the jewish question with tonnes of members saying "gentiles" and "the jewish race" are at war haha.

Thing is your all a bunch of pussies and you cannot back your racist views up on the street cos you would get the shit kicked out of yourselves!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Isakenaz on Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:49 am

Amore Disperato,

May I commend you on your continued use of colourful, sexist language, I'm sure there are many LGBT comrades who approve Rolling Eyes

The stance you are taking whereby your answer to everything you disagree with is the threat of violence would credit you with most fascists and nazis, so are you sure you're playing from the right team?

Some of us have spent long hours progressing leftward, trying to see if there is a working synthesis between Marxism and nationalism available, congratulations your aggressiveness has no doubt sent many who were wavering towards us scurrying back into the stranglehold of the reactionaries.

There is little difference between the aggressive posture that you show than many here have endured from the likes of Stormfront etc, internet commandos whether of the left or the right have one thing in common they bark safely from the anonimity of the internet. I am glad you live in Manchester and are brave enough to advertise the fact and how any of us who dare to come to Manchester will be given a good hiding, but be careful what you wish for comrade, it might come true.

If you wish to put over your reasons why nationalism is reactionary, no doubt inspired by the ideas of Rosa Luxemburg, in a sensible and less hostile mode, you will find there are those here who will willingly debate with you, even though you may find there are many here who have read a lot more Marx then you have. If, however, you insist on using aggression to deflect every sensible argument put to you, well you can FUCK OFF!
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Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Pantheon Rising on Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:51 am

Amore Disperato wrote:yes, about 4 people did and you have a thread dedicated to the jewish question with tonnes of members saying "gentiles" and "the jewish race" are at war haha.

Thing is your all a bunch of pussies and you cannot back your racist views up on the street cos you would get the shit kicked out of yourselves!

Admittingly, that thread was started by me when I knew little about the ideological construct of this forum and in the end it degenerated into a borderline trolling thread. My views have also changed a little since then. Not to mention the thread is in the OPPOSING VIEWS section, and the majority of the forum here was arguing AGAINST me. This is like if I went on to RevLeft and upon seeing a thread called "jews suck" in the opposing ideologies section, I assumed ALL of RevLeft held the view that "jews suck".

Whether people can back up views on "duh streets" or not is totally irrelevant and does nothing to vindicate said views. Ironically, you sound like a socialist who is espousing might is right philosophy. Though, it is apparent you don't read much or know much about philosophy, this sounds like the ranting of a very frustrated child who thinks he is "hard".

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Celtiberian on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:12 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:I have a problem with people advocating anything BUT classwar.

Is that a fact? So then you also have a problem with those who advocate on behalf of animal rights, environmental conservation, and feminism, correct? None of those causes are directly related to class struggle. And what of the causes you cosmopolitans cherish, such as anti-racism and open border policies? Those issues, I would argue, undermine the class struggle since they alienate vast segments of the proletariat by pushing peripheral social issues to the fore, which are only relevant to an insignificant fraction of the working-class. In other words, the cosmopolitan extremism you advance is actually prolonging the dictatorship of capital.

stop detracting from the fact this shitty forum supports racism and fascism

As others have pointed out, we have a very strict policy whereby we restrict or ban members who promote racism and/or fascism.

Fascism, by the way, is a very specific ideology which advocates class collaborationism, imperialism, dictatorship, militarism, and a corporativist economic system. I implore you to find a single example of an unrestricted member of the Socialist Phalanx promoting such a doctrine. People like yourself have a rather annoying tendency to believe fascism is synonymous with any and all forms of nationalism, which is patently absurd.

Any of you fascist scum in manchester show your face and feel the pain only a marxist leninist with proficient brazilian jiu jitsu skills worker can deliver!

Laughing

Advocating racial purity, being a white nationalist or being a patriot goes against every fucking thing Marxism is about, and anarchism and every deviation of marxist and anarchist thought.

Marxism is a mode of analysis which is utilized to study capitalism's laws of motion. Most individuals who accept the core tenets of Marxism also tend to believe that capitalism will eventually be transcended, but they don't agree on how or when this will occur, nor on what will eventually replace it. There are social democratic Marxists (e.g., Eduard Bernstein), who believe in so-called "evolutionary socialism," whereby socialism will be introduced incrementally; Marxist-Leninists, who believe in the revolutionary doctrine espoused by the Bolsheviks; racist Marxists (e.g., Ludwig Woltmann and Karl Pearson) who, while accepting Marx's critique of capital, nevertheless promote policies which oppress the ethnic groups deemed "inferior"; nationalist Marxists (e.g., Ernst Niekisch, Moses Hess, Harro Schulze-Boysen, Karl Otto Paetel, etc.) who are simply Marxists which happen to take a decidedly more nationalistic approach to the National Question; and I could easily go on, but I think you get the point. Incidentally, communism and socialism antecede Marxism, and one can be a socialist or communist without accepting Marxian analysis.

And it's interesting you should bring up anarchism, given the racism occasionally displayed by its main theoreticians. Take, for instance, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who wrote:

"The Jew is by temperament unproductive, neither agriculturalist nor industrialist, not even a genuine trader. . . . The Jews, unsociable, stubborn, infernal. . . . First authors of the malicious superstition called Catholicism. . . . Make a provision against that race—which poisons everything by butting in everywhere without ever merging with any people—to demand its expulsion from France, except for individuals married to French women. Abolish the synagogues. . . . The Jew is the enemy of mankind. That race must be sent back to Asia or exterminated."
Lindemann, Albert S. Esau's Tears: Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jews, pp. 166-167.

Or Mikhail Bakunin, who claimed:

"The whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion. . . . [W]here there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the labour of the people, will be found."
Nachfolger & von Julius. Historia Judaica (vol. 12-14), p. 101.

And you want to accuse us of "racism"? I suggest you study the history of socialism and anarchism a little more closely before spouting off how they're incompatible with what we advocate, for our left-wing nationalist position is positively mild when compared with many of the statements leftists throughout history have made.

marxism is for a classless, nationless, stateless moneyless society, not for national socialism you complete idiot, are you seriously asking how NATIONALISM is at odds with marxism which advocates a stateless borderless society.

Rev Scare has already sufficiently elaborated on this issue of Marxism's compatibility with the left-wing nationalism we espouse, so I needn't address that. However, I think it would definitely interest the many Marxists who advocate(d) on behalf of market socialism (e.g., Jaroslav Vanek, Branko Horvat, Josip Broz Tito, Theodore Burczak, David Schweickart, Edvard Kardelj, etc.), cybernetic planning (e.g., Paul Cockshott, Allin Cottrell, etc.) or participatory economics (e.g., Terry Eagleton, Alex Callinicos, etc.) to hear that an acceptance of Marxism can only lead to the belief that free access communism is capitalism's natural successor-system.

Congrats on being a complete reactionary.

Precisely what is reactionary about the views this forum advocates? Could it possibly be our advocacy of revolutionary socialism? That can't be, so you must be referring to our left-wing nationalism. However, if you consider even socialist conceptions of nationalism to be reactionary, you'd have to denounce every hitherto existing socialist regime as having been reactionary—since various degrees of nationalism could be observed in each of them.

I mean jesus christ are you guys for real, do you not understand why saying your proud to be white and anti imigration and patriotic is wrong

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of the ethnic group you were born into; the Black Panthers, whom you're ever so fond of, regularly displayed pride in their race. It only becomes problematic when one starts believing their ethnic group is superior to others and therefore has a right to oppress "inferior" peoples.

As for immigration, it objectively harms the proletariat by driving down real wages via inflating the size of the labor market. Perhaps you're fine with workers from the global south being exploited and used as pawns to give capital higher bargaining power than labor in the global north, I really don't know. I will say that I consider any socialist or communist who advocates on behalf of more immigration, especially while a nation is capitalist, to be a counter-revolutionary and an enemy of the people.

Of course for example if your irish and in that sense nationalist against imperialism but want to see socialism then communism aka nationless classless stateless society then thats a "nationalism" THAT IS IN LINE WITH MARXISM BUT IF YOUR A NATIONALIST FROM aMERICAN OR bRITAIN AND ARE ANTI IMMIGRATION THEN OF COURSE YOUR NOT COMMUNIST.

Typical cosmopolitan hypocrisy. It's not up to you, or anyone else, to arbitrarily determine which nations have a right to express nationalist sentiments or not. Incidentally, for a self-declared 'Marxist-Leninist,' your views on the National Question don't conform with Lenin's in the slightest.

if you look for example at the USA, in the past you saw poor whites, black slaves and native Americans come together, marry, interbreed and unite against the rich white man, thats why inter racial laws had to be passed and racial purity promoted as the way it should be, becasue in reality it is natural for us to unite and mix together, you dont see leapords saying to other leapords you aint my bretheren because your spots are slightly different.

1.) You, like the White Nationalists, are committing the naturalistic fallacy.

2.) There was never a time in American history wherein "poor whites, black slaves, and native Americans" came together and mingled with one another on a significant scale, or united against the "rich white man." In fact, one of the most successful methods the bourgeoisie used to disorganize the proletariat was to sow racial animus within the proletariat by diversifying the nation via immigration. There were a few marginal multiracial trade unions in the United States, but the union movement at large was extremely racist. Furthermore, miscegenation was, and remains, an act only observable on the fringes of society—if you doubt that, I suggest reviewing the statistics collected on interracial dating and marriage. The only difference between now and earlier periods of history is that miscegenation isn't quite as taboo as it used to be.

Ethnic diversity is one of the main reasons the United States is so individualistic relative to other Western nations, as well as being one of the reasons our labor movement has deteriorated to the extenet it has in recent decades.

The difference between black power and white power is white supremacy is built into the capitalist west and whites are the huge majority

White supremacy isn't "built into" the global north at all. Certain racial injustices undoubtedly occur, but not to the extent that any Western nation could seriously be accused of racial supremacism. High black incarceration rates, for example, are attributable to the economic and cultural poverty blacks experience, as well as minor systemic biases in the criminal justice system which are unavoidable in any ethnically diverse nation—whether a nation be capitalist or socialist is of no consequence. Make no mistake, black people are committing crimes at a higher rate than other ethnic groups, the only questions which remain are: what are the environmental and biological factors which cause this behavior, to what extent are innocent minorities abused by the system, and are the current drug laws just?

Also I am white not black and I dont not play identity politics.

Right..

Well considering at the time the panthers were around you had segregation yes, and if you think black people do not suffer from racism on a huge scale your out your fucking mind and clearly a racist to even deny society is deeply racist.

First of all, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 effectively ended segregation in the United States; the Black Panther Party was founded in 1966. Secondly, what is the actual source behind society's alleged "racism"? To claim, as many left-wing cosmopolitans do, that it's an economic base-superstructure phenomenon is demonstrably false, as ethnocentrism precedes capitalism by millenia and has been observed in every mode of production man has lived under.

Racism is harmful, no one denies that. Thus, it's yet another reason why every people should be given the right to national self-determination. If black Americans feel they're unjustly discriminated against, let them be free to form their own socialist nation.

In closing, let me just say:



Last edited by Celtiberian on Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:24 am; edited 15 times in total

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by GF on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:48 pm

Everyone's already made some very good rebuttals. So I'll just say...

Worst Troll I have ever seen

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Red & White on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:49 pm

Amore Disperato wrote: Any of you fascist scum in manchester show your face and feel the pain only a marxist leninist with proficient brazilian jiu jitsu skills worker can deliver!

No real shocks that this particualr pondlife comes from Manchester in England.

I expect most of the British forum members know, but for the US and other members, there's some interesting history to the far-left and anti-fascist scene in Manchester.

For many years, the leader of Red Action (an ultra-violent leftist group) and Antifa in Manchester was Desmond "Dessie" Noonan. He and his brother Dominic had a rather, so we say, interesting side line as well as being leader of the antifa thugs in the region. I'll leave it to wikipedia to fill you in on Desmond and his brothers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Noonan

At the end of that piece you'll notice that Mark Duggan, who shooting by police started the recent English riots, was the Desmond Noonan's nephew.

So it's not really surprising that Amore Disperato is so free and easy with this threats of violence. When your leader is one of the biggest thugs, murderers and bullys in the country, I suppose it all come natural.

I wonder how Amore Disperato squares Noonan's gangsterism, which blighted the area the area of Manchester, made the lives of working class people hell and supplied them with with deadly, misery inducing drugs, with his ideology of class solidarity?

Amore, you're an utter hypocrite.
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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by TheocWulf on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:15 pm

Red & White wrote:No real shocks that this particualr pondlife comes from Manchester in England.

I expect most of the British forum members know, but for the US and other members, there's some interesting history to the far-left and anti-fascist scene in Manchester.

For many years, the leader of Red Action (an ultra-violent leftist group) and Antifa in Manchester was Desmond "Dessie" Noonan. He and his brother Dominic had a rather, so we say, interesting side line as well as being leader of the antifa thugs in the region. I'll leave it to wikipedia to fill you in on Desmond and his brothers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Noonan

At the end of that piece you'll notice that Mark Duggan, who shooting by police started the recent English riots, was the Desmond Noonan's nephew.

So it's not really surprising that Amore Disperato is so free and easy with this threats of violence. When your leader is one of the biggest thugs, murderers and bullys in the country, I suppose it all come natural.

I wonder how Amore Disperato squares Noonan's gangsterism, which blighted the area the area of Manchester, made the lives of working class people hell and supplied them with with deadly, misery inducing drugs, with his ideology of class solidarity?

Amore, you're an utter hypocrite.

Well fuck me small world Noonan related to Duggan hey

Dont know much about the bloke to be fair but AntiFa have been a rent a mob for years,Im suprised they never got involved in the riots to be honest.

Manchester and Liverpool have been known as faux left wing and antifa strongholds for years since the 80s in some cases and I have no Idea why to be honest they are not as multicultural as London and nowhere near as run down as the North East.The mind boggles

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Red & White on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:49 pm

TheocWulf wrote:Well fuck me small world Noonan related to Duggan hey

Dont know much about the bloke to be fair but AntiFa have been a rent a mob for years,Im suprised they never got involved in the riots to be honest.

Manchester and Liverpool have been known as faux left wing and antifa strongholds for years since the 80s in some cases and I have no Idea why to be honest they are not as multicultural as London and nowhere near as run down as the North East.The mind boggles

I think it's to do with the Irish connection. Liverpool and Manchester both have sizeable Irish communities and a lot of these people are supporters of the republican cause, which leads them towards far-left viewpoints.

The Noonans were IRA supporters and the group that Desmond Noonan led in Manchester, Red Action, had it as part of their membership that you must support Irish republicanism, even if you were English. Two English members of Red Action were bombed Harrods in the 1990's on behalf of the IRA.

There's a good article here about the Irish connection in Manchester and Liverpool to Antifa here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/charge-of-the-new-red-brigade-1570278.html
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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by English Socialist on Mon May 19, 2014 11:01 am

Shouldn't this be in the humour section? I do so enjoy the way that the no platformers screech about beating up anyone who dares to have an opinion which differs to theirs! The idea that Class War is the be-all and end-all is laughable, especially when most of the antifa crowd get fed up of playing at revolutionaries when they leave university to go work in the stock exchange!!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by W.N on Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:20 pm

In reality Marx, and Engels, had quite contradictory views on nations and nationalism.
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