Marxism and Nationalism?!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:19 pm

This is sick, How can you say no war but race and class war, this is so disgusting, please do not advertise as being a revolutionary community and then allowing bigoted reactionaries to spew their anti worker racist filth.

Any of you fascist scum in manchester show your face and feel the pain only a marxist leninist with proficient brazilian jiu jitsu skills worker can deliver!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:41 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:This is sick, How can you say no war but race and class war, this is so disgusting, please do not advertise as being a revolutionary community and then allowing bigoted reactionaries to spew their anti worker racist filth.

Any of you fascist scum in manchester show your face and feel the pain only a marxist leninist with proficient brazilian jiu jitsu skills worker can deliver!

Before making such sweeping generalizations about this forum and what it represents, it would behoove you to actually read through the forum's official positions on the questions of race and racism — found in the FAQ, Guidelines, Restrictions and Bannings sections — as well consult the numerous threads dealing with this very topic.

Race war is not promoted or tolerated on this forum. Anyone who is guilty of disseminating such views on here is in violation of forum policy — and I recommend that you report such members.

Now, if you have a problem with the notion of class warfare, I suggest you go find yourself a social democratic forum to waste your time with.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:55 pm

Advocating racial purity, being a white nationalist or being a patriot goes against every fucking thing Marxism is about, and anarchism and every deviation of marxist and anarchist thought.

Having no war but the race and class war in his sick pretty much sums up the fact hes a white supremacist/ segregationist cretin and should be taken out the back and shot.

Some peop;le need to get a dose of dialectical materialism and grasp science and realise nation and culture aint natural, race is meaningless and being a racist or nationalist is fucked up.

Please can someone delete my account

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:59 pm

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CLASSWAR

I have a problem with people advocating anything BUT classwar.

stop detracting from the fact this shitty forum supports racism and fascism

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:24 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CLASSWAR

I have a problem with people advocating anything BUT classwar.

stop detracting from the fact this shitty forum supports racism and fascism

You clearly haven't taken my advice and actually read though anything, apart from the post of someone who is, in all likelihood, a troll. (Or perhaps you are just trolling the forum for your own entertainment.)

This is not a white nationalist forum, this is a revolutionary socialist & left-wing nationalist forum. Left-wing nationalism defined as
a unique variety of nationalism that is both thoroughly anti-capitalist and anti-reactionary. As such, this variety of nationalism inherently rejects the theories and tendencies associated with most other expressions thereof — such as ethnic chauvinism, economic exploitation, and imperialism."

What about that is not perfectly clear to you?

There is nothing about left-wing nationalism that undermines the core tenets of Marxism. (If you ever read Lenin's works on the question of national self-determination you would know this.) In fact, to deny people the democratic right to voluntarily organize their respective [post-capitalist] societies in a manner that recognizes their national identities is hypocritical, authoritarian bullshit.

And let me be absolutely clear. This forum does not support racism nor fascism. A minority of members members — outside of the forum's nucleus — may harbor opinions that are not in accord with the forum's principles. Whenever such individuals air such views, they are redirected to the 'Opposing Views' section and the guilty parties are disciplined accordingly.

Now, if you are either too stupid or insecure to deal with a forum that is not afraid to engage those with opposing viewpoints, I suggest you find your nearest "left-wing" scenester circle jerk. There you can assemble and brag about your fidelity to principles you clearly are not intelligent enough to fully comprehend.


Last edited by Admin on Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:34 pm

marxism is for a classless, nationless, stateless moneyless society, not for national socialism you complete idiot, are you seriously asking how NATIONALISM is at odds with marxism which advocates a stateless borderless society.

FAIL

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:36 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CLASSWAR

I have a problem with people advocating anything BUT classwar.

stop detracting from the fact this shitty forum supports racism and fascism

Your irrational outbursts do little to support your argument. We are not a fascist forum, and we are not a racist forum. We do maintain left-wing nationalism as a central position, but there is absolutely nothing about this that stands irreconcilably at odds with Marxist theory. Only those who have a superficial and limited understanding of Marx would state such rubbish.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Altair on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:37 pm

I suppose Amore missed the fact that "Aryan Communist" is currently restricted, and that in Celtiberian's first response he clearly stated what the Socialist Phalanx is and is not. As Admin said, Amore, you should go read the FAQ and improve your understanding of our forum before you make such comments.

*edit* Obviously, Amore cannot differentiate between our own views and national socialism, which is a truly astounding feat.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:38 pm

Yeah cos being a proletarian who works two jobs, is currently running community programs and is an active member of anti fascist groups i have quite the need to communicate with my fellow scenesters.

Get in the real world mate and after you read marx plz dont use the pages to wipe your arse with.

Congrats on being a complete reactionary.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:42 pm

Yeah i dont get marx, thats wy I do not see that nationalism and marxism are contradictions and antagonistic opposites, no wait, thats you.

I mean jesus christ are you guys for real, do you not understand why saying your proud to be white and anti imigration and patriotic is wrong, do I really need to explain why you cannot be a nationalist aswell as marxist.

Of course for example if your irish and in that sense nationalist against imperialism but want to see socialism then communism aka nationless classless stateless society then thats a "nationalism" THAT IS IN LINE WITH MARXISM BUT IF YOUR A NATIONALIST FROM aMERICAN OR bRITAIN AND ARE ANTI IMMIGRATION THEN OF COURSE YOUR NOT COMMUNIST.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:46 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:marxism is for a classless, nationless, stateless moneyless society, not for national socialism you complete idiot, are you seriously asking how NATIONALISM is at odds with marxism which advocates a stateless borderless society.

FAIL

This depends entirely upon how you interpret Marxism. Do not carelessly interchange the term "state" with "nation." The two are not the same. A state is a formal institution with a monopoly on the legal use of force; a nation is an organic collection of related individuals who share a common identity. Why would Marx, who was such a profound critic studying society through the lends of dialectical materialism, waste his time arguing for political measures to be taken against subjective human identity? This would be a foolish and naive pursuit, and he never espoused such a position. Marx has never decried the nation as we define it, only its instrumental value to the bourgeois state.

You seem to possess the stunted notion of Marxism (and socialism and communism) so typical of the contemporary "left," which is so hopelessly entrenched in anti-working class rhetoric.


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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by TheocWulf on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:47 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:Yeah i dont get marx, thats wy I do not see that nationalism and marxism are contradictions and antagonistic opposites, no wait, thats you.

I mean jesus christ are you guys for real, do you not understand why saying your proud to be white and anti imigration and patriotic is wrong, do I really need to explain why you cannot be a nationalist aswell as marxist.

Of course for example if your irish and in that sense nationalist against imperialism but want to see socialism then communism aka nationless classless stateless society then thats a "nationalism" THAT IS IN LINE WITH MARXISM BUT IF YOUR A NATIONALIST FROM aMERICAN OR bRITAIN AND ARE ANTI IMMIGRATION THEN OF COURSE YOUR NOT COMMUNIST.

are you takeing the piss mate

In fact I know you are therfore TROLL

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:50 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:Yeah i dont get marx, thats wy I do not see that nationalism and marxism are contradictions and antagonistic opposites, no wait, thats you.

I mean jesus christ are you guys for real, do you not understand why saying your proud to be white and anti imigration and patriotic is wrong, do I really need to explain why you cannot be a nationalist aswell as marxist.

Of course for example if your irish and in that sense nationalist against imperialism but want to see socialism then communism aka nationless classless stateless society then thats a "nationalism" THAT IS IN LINE WITH MARXISM BUT IF YOUR A NATIONALIST FROM aMERICAN OR bRITAIN AND ARE ANTI IMMIGRATION THEN OF COURSE YOUR NOT COMMUNIST.

I don't have time at the moment to dissect your emotional responses carefully, but this is simply laughable. You are erroneously conflating imperialism with the concept of an organically conceived society. Take the time to read what we have to offer patiently or depart from our presence and return to the faux-left subculture that birthed you.


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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:54 pm

lol there is only one way to determine marxism stop trying to claim marxism while being a metaphysical thinker and abandoning marx's tool aka dialectical materialism and instead talking about culture and identity like a black man an asain woman and a white transwoman are all different rather than one.

The fact is racial identity is bullshit and is a remnant of reactionary times, if you look for example at the USA, in the past you saw poor whites, black slaves and native Americans come together, marry, interbreed and unite against the rich white man, thats why inter racial laws had to be passed and racial purity promoted as the way it should be, becasue in reality it is natural for us to unite and mix together, you dont see leapords saying to other leapords you aint my bretheren because your spots are slightly different.


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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:10 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:marxism is for a classless, nationless, stateless moneyless society, not for national socialism you complete idiot, are you seriously asking how NATIONALISM is at odds with marxism which advocates a stateless borderless society.

FAIL

You are conflating communism — the conclusion of a developmental process that was scantly elaborated upon by Marx, Engels, and the vast preponderance of prominent Marxist theorists — with Marxism proper. Your incapacity to level an argument that takes into account such elementary facts illustrates why such a false dichotomy exists in your mind.

Left-wing nationalism fully supports society evolving in accordance to a revolutionary socialist framework. Now, if the will of the international proletariat — having been liberated from the shackles of bourgeois hegemony — is to forge a process of integration that abolishes states and transcends national identities, then we support that development on the basis of proletarian self-determination. However, as left-wing nationalists, we also understand that there is absolutely nothing, apart from the optimistic conjecture of sophomoric individuals like yourself, to support the notion that the international proletariat will immediately dispense with their respective national identities (as well as any other identities one may arbitrarily disagree with) simply because socialism has been achieved. As such, left-wing nationalism stands as an ideological rubric for the majority of the working class that retains a national consciousness, along with a class consciousness.


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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:27 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:lol there is only one way to determine marxism stop trying to claim marxism while being a metaphysical thinker and abandoning marx's tool aka dialectical materialism and instead talking about culture and identity like a black man an asain woman and a white transwoman are all different rather than one.

First of all, dialectical materialism posits nothing about political and economic policy. Marxian dialectics is a component of epistemology, not politics nor ethics. Dialectical materialism competes with empiricism and rationalism, not metaphysics.

The fact is racial identity is bullshit and is a remnant of reactionary times, if you look for example at the USA, in the past you saw poor whites, black slaves and native Americans come together, marry, interbreed and unite against the rich white man, thats why inter racial laws had to be passed and racial purity promoted as the way it should be, becasue in reality it is natural for us to unite and mix together, you dont see leapords saying to other leapords you aint my bretheren because your spots are slightly different.

Racial identity persists despite continuing trends to reverse the process through the expansion of consumerism and exploitation, and whatever intermixing did occur in the past remained minimal and continues to be so in the present. Nevertheless, we do not exclusively confine nationalism to race, nor do we view race as a necessary component of nationhood. We fully concede that colonialism has exploited racial and national loyalties in order to further despicable aims, including but certainly not limited to the enslavement of African peoples.

I find it rather ironic that you would attempt to invoke nature for defense when considering that racists such as those whose views are expressed on websites such as Stormfront often do the same but to opposite effect. Racialists argue that racial separation is a "natural" phenomenon, and they too provide examples from history and contemporary trends in order to bolster their arguments. This indicates that neither side has claim to any significant "truths," and that they merely perceive society through their own preferred lens and shape and are shaped accordingly by society. This is the basis of dialectical materialism, and yet you would appeal to some arbitrary natural "law" to gain credibility. Who was it that lacked understanding of Marxian thought?


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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Pantheon Rising on Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:08 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:This is sick, How can you say no war but race and class war, this is so disgusting, please do not advertise as being a revolutionary community and then allowing bigoted reactionaries to spew their anti worker racist filth.

Any of you fascist scum in manchester show your face and feel the pain only a marxist leninist with proficient brazilian jiu jitsu skills worker can deliver!

I read in your intro thread you were looking for a black panther party... all fine and dandy but how about a white panther party for European-American workers? hmmm? Or is playing identity politics more important to you?

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:49 pm

Pantheon Rising wrote:I read in your intro thread you were looking for a black panther party... all fine and dandy but how about a white panther party for European-American workers? hmmm? Or is playing identity politics more important to you?

There was a white panther party you idiot!

Also no again you fail to see how the panthers grew from a black nationalist line that was adopted by huey and seale from Malcom X and coincidently supported by stalin and his black belt view of the black nation in America, into a international marxist leninist maoist group that was against all racism and all injustice, as they said we aint anti white we anti right, you cant fight racism with racism.

There is a difference in the fact that the black panthers were not only oppressed as proletarians but also nationally opressed, this is the same for Irish nationalism and native American movements. The panthers were a product of the fact that African Americans needed direct action by their own community members against the very real war going on against black people by racist white hate groups and murdering pigs.
However the BPP soon dropped nationalism and became strictly marxist leninist maoist and prominent panthers like fred hampton organised coalitions with thousands of black, latino and white workers and youth especially.

Also note that the panthers not only had deep ties with white radicals, they also gave funds to them and lent bpp buddha samurai underground cadres to train them in urban guerrilla tactics and spent thousands on legal aid for poor white people, not to mention around 20 percent of the people benefitting from bpp programs were white.

You should really do your homework and understand why Black power and White power is not the same.
For example black people do not hold political power so even if your lies about the movement was true it wouldnt matter as they could not racially opress whites, but whites do opress black people on a daily basis.

The difference between black power and white power is white supremacy is built into the capitalist west and whites are the huge majority, so saying white pride is not a resisting slogan against chauvanism or national opression its a dominant and supremacist position.

Where as the black power of black working people who are both opressed as a class as white workers are, but also opressed by the majority white population, and nationally opressed aswell as suffering even more open exploitation by the bourgeoisie.

Also I am white not black and I dont not play identity politics.

Mao said serve the people, this is what the panthers did and did to better effect than any other western marxist group did.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Leon Mcnichol on Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:58 pm

You claim we are the racists, and yet you come around saying white people in general oppress black people? Talk about contradicitons..
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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:04 pm

Well considering at the time the panthers were around you had segregation yes, and if you think black people do not suffer from racism on a huge scale your out your fucking mind and clearly a racist to even deny society is deeply racist.

I suppose the bourgeoisie do not opress the workers either, dumb fuck, I mean jesus atleast stormfront is honest about being a bag of cunts!

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:07 pm

Amore Disperato wrote: Well considering at the time the panthers were around you had segregation yes, and if you think black people do not suffer from racism on a huge scale your out your fucking mind and clearly a racist to even deny society is deeply racist.

I suppose the bourgeoisie do not opress the workers either, dumb fuck, I mean jesus atleast stormfront is honest about being a bag of cunts!

Fuck off, pal. Do you even contemplate the nonsense that you spout off about? Go lather yourself up in an "anti-fash," "anti-racist" fervor somewhere else.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:11 pm

Deal, when you stop calling yourselves socialist when you are infact a bunch of fascist cunts.

I bet you all think white men are the victim of a black jewish matriachal plot dont you, why not chant rights for whites too, then decide capitalism is a jewish conspiracy and talk about communism for the white race.

You know how pathetic this site is, you have a member that calls himself as a national socialist trotskyist hahhahahaha contradiction FTW

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Leon Mcnichol on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:19 pm

Your trolling agenda is obvious and you are violating forum rules by insulting other members, and the forum in general.

Besides you seem to be just another "trendy leftie" who is more worried with "racism" and "blame whitey",than he is with worker rights, class conscience or even socialism in the true sense of the word. We don't need the likes of you here, nor does the working people, regardless of their color or nationality.
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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Amore Disperato on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:27 pm

no you just do not accept that white people can be opressed as workers and also opress others racially, but thats because your a racist.

No i see capitalism as the main enemy which keeps racism alive and commits genocide by making around 50 thousand people starve and die of treatable disease each day and robs the workers all over the world.

However you fail to notice that the state is an opressive force and only maintains to keep class society with one class exploiting the rest.

I do support the dictatorship ofthe proletariat and revolutionary socialist states but only as a step until we can have communism, aka total egalitarian non hierachal classless stateless society.

I also organise with socialists who want a socialist state and are not communists, however they do not call themselves marxists like alot of people on here do while also being statist.

PS YES WHITE SUPREMACISM AND RACISM IS A HUGE PROBLEM

NO NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST

YES THE MAIN ISSUE IS CLASS

BUT IF YOU WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MINORITIES ARE VICITIMISED BY RACISM IN SOCIETY YOUR FUCKING IDIOTIC AND RACIST

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

Post by Rev Scare on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:30 pm

Amore Disperato wrote:Deal, when you stop calling yourselves socialist when you are infact a bunch of fascist cunts.

There is no objective basis for describing the core principles of this forum as fascist. The burden of proof is on you to reveal elements of fascism within the forum's narrative, not on us to provide negative proof.

I bet you all think white men are the victim of a black jewish matriachal plot dont you, why not chant rights for whites too, then decide capitalism is a jewish conspiracy and talk about communism for the white race.

Absolute nonsense. We have consistently refuted such myths and myopic worldviews. I refer you to the reactionary section of OV: start here, here, and here

You know how pathetic this site is, you have a member that calls himself as a national socialist trotskyist hahhahahaha contradiction FTW

The beliefs of individual members does not necessarily reflect the disposition of the greater forum or of the administration. This is a relatively open forum as far as individual tendencies are concerned (provided that they fall within certain parameters) due to the fact that we value constructive debate as opposed to dogmatic adherence to a subcultural standard.

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Re: Marxism and Nationalism?!

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