Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

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Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Coach on Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:57 pm

Please read the following article by the KPOB organization of Austria:
http://www.rkob.net/new-english-language-site-1/uprising-the-left-in-britain/

When I get back from work, I will post my views on it.
In the meantime, I encourage other Socialist Phalanxers who read this to do likewise. Let's discuss this.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Rev Scare on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:30 pm

I am gaining more respect for the RKOB the more I peruse their material. Their condemnation of the petit-bourgeois "Left" intelligentsia is something that was especially potent. Žižek, for all his philosophical and psychoanalytic coloring, is a rather uninspiring and dangerously stupefying character of the "intellectual elite" within the contemporary "left-wing."

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:14 am

Their condemnation of the petit-bourgeois "Left" intelligentsia is something that was especially potent.

IT was indeed however the more they said things like Black,Migrant,Opressed minorites the more working class English people would ignore this article if they had not already as its from a johnny organisation.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Isakenaz on Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:01 am

The entire article reads (and rightly so) as a damning indictment of the entire British Left. Their wholesale refusal to become involved with the uprising and give it the socialist credentials that they then condemned it as lacking, therefore confirming it as a mere criminal riot. Throughout the article they blame the left for the failure of what should have been the beginning of the revolution, putting the blame entirely where it should be on the institutional nature of the various leftist organisations;

“This failure is not accidentally. It is the result of historic weaknesses in theory, programme and practice.”

Without exception (other than a few mumblings) the leftist organisations rushed to join the chorus of disapproval, especially where they were able to condemn the ‘event’ as producing a ‘set back’ in their own ‘reformist’, ‘transitional’ dreamings. They produce a catalogue of denials from the various Left-Wing organisations, from the reformists to the so-called revolutionary groups, that they had any involvement in the events. In fact these ‘leftist’ organisations seem to wear that un-involvement as a badge of purity, no doubt to garner further acceptance by the establishment. Revolutionaries? Ha!!

Well the ‘event’ is over, the dust laid, and the bourgeois and their leftist apologists have once again firmly readjusted their saddle. Was anything learned from the failure? Obviously not, for the real left (as they seem to think themselves) have simply returned to their dreams of ‘transition’ rather than revolution. The idea that socialism will be ushered in on the backs of a wave of peaceful demonstrations, marches and one-day strikes.

Over on revleft, the now banned Coach Trotsky advised at the height of the event, that the so-called revolutionaries on that forum go home and read some Lenin. Did they? No, they merely used his words as a humorous slogan. Well they should have, as we should read some Marx, Lenin and other revolutionaries.

TheocWulf wrote:...however the more they said things like Black,Migrant,Opressed minorites the more working class English people would ignore this article if they had not already as its from a johnny organisation.

Firstly, I think that if you read the article you'll find that they put any idea that it was purely a racial issue in its place, and when they use the description 'opressed' they are also including white workers. Secondly if the view of any organisation you consider a 'johnny' (I presume you mean johnny foreigner) is not acceptable in your chauvinistic world view, who is?

Still parroting the establishment view then? Still at least we know where the Strasserites stand.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:55 am

Isakenaz wrote:Firstly, I think that if you read the article you'll find that they put any idea that it was purely a racial issue in its place, and when they use the description 'opressed' they are also including white workers. Secondly if the view of any organisation you consider a 'johnny' (I presume you mean johnny foreigner) is not acceptable in your chauvinistic world view, who is?

I never said the riots were a racial issue or that this article painted it as a racial issue, however thats the language they use (on the second line of the article).You pop down my local or any working class area and show them an article from an Austrian communist group useing the language I pointed out and see what folk think of it.I was useing johnny foreigner as a figure of speech but many normal English folk might.

Still parroting the establishment view then? Still at least we know where the Strasserites stand.

Crickey I thaught I was on RevLeft for a second then.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Isakenaz on Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:04 am

TheocWulf wrote:I never said the riots were a racial issue or that this article painted it as a racial issue, however thats the language they use (on the second line of the article).You pop down my local or any working class area and show them an article from an Austrian communist group useing the language I pointed out and see what folk think of it.I was useing johnny foreigner as a figure of speech but many normal English folk might.

You mean this line?

...lower strata of the working class and the nationally and racially oppressed

And how do you suggest we appeal to the working-class, drums, flags and marching a la NF? Also I spend most of my time with 'normal' English folk, and the last time I heard the phrase 'Johnny Foreigner' was in an old war film.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Isakenaz on Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:19 am

Slightly off topic, but;

The Revolutionary Communist Organisation for Liberation – RKOB – is a combat organisation for the liberation of the working class and all oppressed. The working class is the class of all those (and their families) who are forced to sell their labour power as wage earners to the capitalists. The RKOB stands on the theory and practice of the revolutionary workers' movement associated with the names of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:34 am

Isakenaz wrote:And how do you suggest we appeal to the working-class, drums, flags and marching a la NF? Also I spend most of my time with 'normal' English folk, and the last time I heard the phrase 'Johnny Foreigner' was in an old war film.

Your right there to be fair they would have said foreign cunts.I was trying to be tactile.As for flags marching ect it worked to an extent in the 70s as it was appeling to peoples feelings at the time concerning national industry and national life but wont now.I belive the Indigenous working class are the people who will be the future of this country so I see no problem appeling to its peoples national feeling(I have the same feelings)through the peoples shared History,Sport,Language,Music ect its not like it would just dissaper if Socialism tipped up tommorow.

What I want is Socialism for me and the people like me everybody else will have to be an after thaught.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Isakenaz on Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:23 pm

TheocWulf wrote:
What I want is Socialism for me and the people like me everybody else will have to be an after thaught.

Thats very good of you.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:08 pm

Isakenaz wrote:Thats very good of you.

Once our own people are free then we encourage the rest of the world to rid itself of capitalism.Whats the problem with that?

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Take notice, That England is not a Free People, till the Poor that have no Land, have a free allowance to dig and labour the Commons, and so live as Comfortably as the Landlords that live in their Inclosures. For the People have not laid out their Monies, and shed their Bloud, that their Landlords, the Norman power, should still have its liberty and freedom to rule in Tyranny.-Gerrard Winstanley & 14 others TheTrue Levellers Standard Advanced - April, 1649

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:37 pm

Isakenaz may I ask why do you keep on using such an insulting tone with other members ( who are simply critical of the idea of workers teaming up regardless of nationality)?

Im pretty sure Ive seen Theocwulf write that he has nothing against cooperating with people of different nationalities. So what the hell is your problem with him? Im not a Strasserite but I am sick and tired of you constantly insulting them ( when they are accepted members of this forum). Im against Communism but you dont see me going after Communist members of this forum they way you do with Strasserites, now do you? Please show some more respect to members you disagree with.

You seem to be constantly attacking members ( in a pretty insulting way) who ( at the very least) are critical of the idea that all proletarians, regardless of nationality, should unite against Capitalism. No offence but you honestly are sounding more and more like a Cosmopolitan Socialist. The things you advocate have nothing to do with Nationalism and closely resemble the positions advocated by Cosmopolitan Socialists. Please be more respectful of members who dont take the same positions as you. That is all I ask.

I must also say that this is probably the last time Im going to call anyone else out for reasons like this. Ive noticed that certain members are starting to overemphasize Socialism to the point that they forget they are on a forum that advocates Nationalism as well. To top it all off some of them keep on implying that those who dont agree with them are not true Socialists. I totally disagree with them since overemphasizing Socialism is just as stupid as overemphasizing Nationalism. Nonetheless all I ask of these members is to be a little more respectful ( by, for example, not accusing those who disagree with them of supporting the Establishment). Anyways like I wrote before this is probably going to be the last time Im going to write about this. I have no power on this forum therefore I cant stop any of these members from going off at others. But I will say that if people who overemphasize either part of Socialist Nationalism are allowed free reign then they may succeed in driving those, who take the whole thing seriously, away from this forum. I, for one, will probably post less as long as these attacks continue. I didnt come here to see others imply that my beliefs are " in line with the Establishment's" Rolling Eyes .
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by GF on Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:36 pm

Rebel Warrior 59 wrote: Isakenaz may I ask why do you keep on using such an insulting tone with other members ( who are simply critical of the idea of workers teaming up regardless of nationality)?

Im pretty sure Ive seen Theocwulf write that he has nothing against cooperating with people of different nationalities. So what the hell is your problem with him? Im not a Strasserite but I am sick and tired of you constantly insulting them ( when they are accepted members of this forum). Im against Communism but you dont see me going after Communist members of this forum they way you do with Strasserites, now do you? Please show some more respect to members you disagree with.

You seem to be constantly attacking members ( in a pretty insulting way) who ( at the very least) are critical of the idea that all proletarians, regardless of nationality, should unite against Capitalism. No offence but you honestly are sounding more and more like a Cosmopolitan Socialist. The things you advocate have nothing to do with Nationalism and closely resemble the positions advocated by Cosmopolitan Socialists. Please be more respectful of members who dont take the same positions as you. That is all I ask.

I must also say that this is probably the last time Im going to call anyone else out for reasons like this. Ive noticed that certain members are starting to overemphasize Socialism to the point that they forget they are on a forum that advocates Nationalism as well. To top it all off some of them keep on implying that those who dont agree with them are not true Socialists. I totally disagree with them since overemphasizing Socialism is just as stupid as overemphasizing Nationalism. Nonetheless all I ask of these members is to be a little more respectful ( by, for example, not accusing those who disagree with them of supporting the Establishment). Anyways like I wrote before this is probably going to be the last time Im going to write about this. I have no power on this forum therefore I cant stop any of these members from going off at others. But I will say that if people who overemphasize either part of Socialist Nationalism are allowed free reign then they may succeed in driving those, who take the whole thing seriously, away from this forum. I, for one, will probably post less as long as these attacks continue. I didnt come here to see others imply that my beliefs are " in line with the Establishment's" Rolling Eyes .

I understand your concerns Rebel Warrior. Personally, I think until we have figured out how our nationalism and socialism fit together, these sorts of disputes will be inevitable.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Coach on Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:11 pm

These disputes will keep happening because we're not nearly on the same page about nationalism, nor on the same page on socialism, and not on the same page about revolution.
The white youths that hit the streets in England to rebel knew more (at least at the gut level) about what we're fighting---and actually did something about it---compared to the Strasserites and other Third Positionists, not to mention much more than the Hitlerites and garden variety fascists (who basically would consider these rebellious white youth as 'wigger white trash' or 'lazy spoiled brats' or 'criminals', and would support more police repression and even sending in the army to crack skulls and kill these white kids and the minorities rebelling along with them).

This uprising of the poor and oppressed in England tested the so-called "Left" and they failed miserably. But I think it also tested the so-called 'pro-White' nationalists too, and they certainly showed their true (class) colors this time too, just as much as the faux-left did.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy
IF THIS IS WHO YOU ORIENT TO (along with other white middle class layers), NO FUCKING WONDER YOU GET NOWHERE!

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Leon Mcnichol on Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:01 am

Well Coach, to be absolutely fair here, (and i am not a Strasserite or Hitlerite) the so called lefties also didn't do nothing, and quite frankly, this whole "uprising" was triggered by all the wrong reasons, if one believes the media (and it's the only source of info we have).

Sure, it would have been a perfect opportunity for the left to man up, and decry the real reasons behind all this like the KPOB did, even because they surely had access to more information than any on this forum, but they didn't.

About the fascists and WN, they are not even worth my time.

But i don't want to see here immature disputes about who was "down" with the youth in the streets and who wasn't, specially given the fact that nobody here is forced to agree with that course of action.

Hell, i feel like i am trying to cool off some bully kids that can't even reason with their teammates, much less even take on the system...
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:53 am

Coach wrote:These disputes will keep happening because we're not nearly on the same page about nationalism, nor on the same page on socialism, and not on the same page about revolution.
The white youths that hit the streets in England to rebel knew more (at least at the gut level) about what we're fighting---and actually did something about it---compared to the Strasserites and other Third Positionists, not to mention much more than the Hitlerites and garden variety fascists (who basically would consider these rebellious white youth as 'wigger white trash' or 'lazy spoiled brats' or 'criminals', and would support more police repression and even sending in the army to crack skulls and kill these white kids and the minorities rebelling along with them).

This uprising of the poor and oppressed in England tested the so-called "Left" and they failed miserably. But I think it also tested the so-called 'pro-White' nationalists too, and they certainly showed their true (class) colors this time too, just as much as the faux-left did.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy
IF THIS IS WHO YOU ORIENT TO (along with other white middle class layers), NO FUCKING WONDER YOU GET NOWHERE!

Ill say it again you show me some evidence of the riots being motivated by politics(outside of totenham ref mark dugan)and not by consumerism gone mad.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Isakenaz on Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:17 am

TheocWulf wrote:Ill say it again you show me some evidence of the riots being motivated by politics(outside of totenham ref mark dugan)and not by consumerism gone mad.

I think that is the point, reference is made to there having been no attempt to 'politicize' the event. As a result it was a matter of ease for the authorities, via the media and their fellow travellers from both the left and the right, to dismiss it as simply an act of criminality.

Today the IPPC decided that there was nothing to investigate over the death of the reggae singer 'Smiley Culture' who, "stabbed himself while making a cup of tea, despite the presence of officers in his home." (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/reggae-stars-death-no-action-over-raid-144359393.html) Rolling Eyes . So is this the next 'Duggan'?

Anyway this will be my last post on this subject, as I'm obviously abusing my position within this forum.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Coach on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:22 am

TheocWulf wrote:Ill say it again you show me some evidence of the riots being motivated by politics(outside of totenham ref mark dugan)and not by consumerism gone mad.

What a conservative petty bourgeois elitist 'blame the people at the bottom ' view of the rebellion that just happened under your nose! You just dismiss it as consumerism-gone-mad and criminality! That's exactly why I posted that wiki link about Labor Aristocracy.
Evidence of politics? Well, what do you call the 4 days of masses fighting against police in the streets of England's cities?! Perhaps you only thought of politics as something that happens in media debates and advertisements, elections, and parliament!

No, you choose to see what you want to see, and it reveals everything important about where you stand in the class struggle.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:33 am

Coach wrote:What a conservative petty bourgeois elitist 'blame the people at the bottom ' view of the rebellion that just happened under your nose! You just dismiss it as consumerism-gone-mad and criminality! That's exactly why I posted that wiki link about Labor Aristocracy.
Evidence of politics? Well, what do you call the 4 days of masses fighting against police in the streets of England's cities?! Perhaps you only thought of politics as something that happens in media debates and advertisements, elections, and parliament!

No, you choose to see what you want to see, and it reveals everything important about where you stand in the class struggle.

Mate im getting bored of your accusation of me being this or that becuse I dont follow your view of a situation or share the same POV as yourself.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by flatowkorps on Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:35 pm

Riots in England = monkeys vs government&hard working people. Anyway, I think that leftist in Britain should join the riots to make a revolution.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by TheocWulf on Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:46 pm

flatowkorps wrote:Riots in England = monkeys vs government&hard working people. Anyway, I think that leftist in Britain should join the riots to make a revolution.

Well to be fair comrade alot of English people were involved in the riots and looting.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:25 pm

Coach wrote:What a conservative petty bourgeois elitist 'blame the people at the bottom ' view of the rebellion that just happened under your nose! You just dismiss it as consumerism-gone-mad and criminality! That's exactly why I posted that wiki link about Labor Aristocracy.
Evidence of politics? Well, what do you call the 4 days of masses fighting against police in the streets of England's cities?! Perhaps you only thought of politics as something that happens in media debates and advertisements, elections, and parliament!

No, you choose to see what you want to see, and it reveals everything important about where you stand in the class struggle.

See thats the thing, all you seem to care about is class struggle. You totally forget the fact that Socialism and Nationalism are equally important. Class struggle should be reserved for International ( or Cosmopolitan as many say) Socialists. A national struggle against Capitalism should be the purpose of Socialist Nationalism.
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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Pantheon Rising on Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:32 pm

flatowkorps wrote:Riots in England = monkeys vs government&hard working people. Anyway, I think that leftist in Britain should join the riots to make a revolution.

I think this is a bad generalization and I am not in support of the riots, and definitely not in support of the system. How were they rioting against hard working people though? And, anyone rioting against the government I support. I don't care if they're black, yellow, brown, green or whatever. If you are anti-government you and me have some common ground we can work upon.

Like I said before though these riots would only be something to REALLY cheer on if they were brought under a Socialist-Nationalist direction.

Also, to reply to the poster above me, I think it is both an ethnic struggle and a class struggle at the same time.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by GF on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:11 pm

Although I more or less agree with Isa, I must be fair and say that the American media only portrayed this is as violent consumerism, and if we are to go by what the media said, there was no proletarian element to it.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Celtiberian on Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:57 pm

Rebel Warrior 59 wrote:Class struggle should be reserved for International ( or Cosmopolitan as many say) Socialists. A national struggle against Capitalism should be the purpose of Socialist Nationalism.

Class struggle isn't something we have a choice in acknowledging or not. As socialists, it's incumbent upon us to recognize the fact that class struggle is endemic to the capitalist mode of production. Socialist revolution (be it guided by nationalist or cosmopolitan parties) will be advanced only through the contradictions of capital creating the material conditions which enable the proletariat to gain a sufficient level of class consciousness. National sentiments are only capable of generation revolution under conditions of occupation or colonialism, consequently, nationalism can only be a consideration after the revolution has occurred for most nations.

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

Post by Isakenaz on Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:59 pm

I know I said I would not be posting in this thread again, but one final word for those who feel my tone has been abrasive, uncompassionate, or cosmopolitan;

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Re: Uprising: The Left in Britain (by the KPOB organization in Austria)

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