Question about Cooperatives

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Question about Cooperatives

Post by Pennsylvania Dude on Thu May 22, 2014 3:53 am

Hello guys , I've recently begun looking into socialism ( especially with regard to the subject of worker co-ops ) and I've found the subject so far to be fairly interesting ( I just stumbled on this forum by the way ) .  I do have my reservations about it though and I'd like to ask a question about this subject from actual socialists .

  My question is as follows :  What would be done with businesses whose employees lacked the ability to transform them into co-ops , following a switch to a socialist economy ?  I ask this question because I think that certain enterprises simply lack employees capable of running a cooperative enterprise . To use a personal example ,  most of my current fellow co workers wouldn't be able to manage the store where we work at , to put it mildly  So what would be done with enterprises that had staff like the one I described ?  Also I realize that there are Socialists who don't believe in implementing the cooperative model , so I'm only posing this question to those who do .  Anyways thanks in advance .

 P.S.  This is pretty much irrelevant but I thought I'd mention that this Rebel Redneck character's behavior ( I saw some of his posts while browsing the forum ) , isn't out of the ordinary at all .  I don't mean to come off as ethnically insensitive , but unassimilated Hungarian American metalheads ( which he apparently is ) are a lot worse than guidos IMO .  Of course I can't say much about most of the USA , but where I come from ( Allentown area ) there are quite a few Hungarian American metalheads who are very anti social and even criminal . You can often spot them drinking , using drugs , harassing female passersby's, and fighting in vacant lots .  All the while jabbering and carrying on in their very strange language .  Of course this has nothing to do with my question , but I thought I'd let you all know that " Hunkies " or " Bohunks " from Eastern PA can be very unsavory characters ( especially if they're metalheads ) .
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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by HomelessArtist on Thu May 22, 2014 1:54 pm

Well... Its a co-operative, once the workers see they can manage/administrate it themselves they just hire an administrator/manager for that.

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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by Celtiberian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:14 pm

Pennsylvania Dude wrote:Hello guys , I've recently begun looking into socialism ( especially with regard to the subject of worker co-ops ) and I've found the subject so far to be fairly interesting ( I just stumbled on this forum by the way ) .  I do have my reservations about it though and I'd like to ask a question about this subject from actual socialists

Welcome, Pennsylvania Dude. I'm glad you discovered the Socialist Phalanx while researching cooperatives and I hope you consider registering an account on the forum.

My question is as follows :  What would be done with businesses whose employees lacked the ability to transform them into co-ops , following a switch to a socialist economy ?  I ask this question because I think that certain enterprises simply lack employees capable of running a cooperative enterprise . To use a personal example ,  most of my current fellow co workers wouldn't be able to manage the store where we work at , to put it mildly  So what would be done with enterprises that had staff like the one I described ?  Also I realize that there are Socialists who don't believe in implementing the cooperative model , so I'm only posing this question to those who do .  Anyways thanks in advance

As HomelessArtist said, workers who, for whatever, are incapable of sufficiently managing their firm's internal affairs will hire or appoint competent managers to fulfill the role. What distinguishes this practice from bourgeois managerialism is that those managers will be held accountable to a democratically elected workers' council in each enterprise, thereby having authority ultimately rest with the workforce itself.

I suspect this practice will be fairly common during the transition to a socialist mode of production as a consequence of the population being rared in the hierarchical social relations of late capitalism. Reforming our educational system along the lines advocated by figures like John Dewey and Alfie Kohn will prepare larger segments of society for the requirements of associated labor, and social control of investment will additionally enable the nation to place a higher priority on developing technologies conducive to collaborative decision-making, so the necessity of strictly managerial occupations should subside over time.

I should also emphasize that socialism entails more than workers' self-management. Producer cooperatives, which you appear to be the most interested in, are privately owned and subordinated to the law of value, both of which many socialists seek to transcend—I can elaborate on the reasons why that is, if you're interested.

P.S.  This is pretty much irrelevant but I thought I'd mention that this Rebel Redneck character's behavior ( I saw some of his posts while browsing the forum ) , isn't out of the ordinary at all .  I don't mean to come off as ethnically insensitive , but unassimilated Hungarian American metalheads ( which he apparently is ) are a lot worse than guidos IMO .  Of course I can't say much about most of the USA , but where I come from ( Allentown area ) there are quite a few Hungarian American metalheads who are very anti social and even criminal . You can often spot them drinking , using drugs , harassing female passersby's, and fighting in vacant lots .  All the while jabbering and carrying on in their very strange language .  Of course this has nothing to do with my question , but I thought I'd let you all know that " Hunkies " or " Bohunks " from Eastern PA can be very unsavory characters ( especially if they're metalheads )

Interesting. I wasn't aware of there being a Hungarian mentalhead epidemic in Pennsylvania.

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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by Pennsylvania Dude on Mon May 26, 2014 3:57 am

Thanks for the answers guys . I can't call myself a socialist since I haven't done my homework  , but I'm definitely sympathetic . I'll look more into the issue of cooperatives , but your answers have somewhat satisfied my curiosity so I appreciate it .

Also Celtiberian , if you don't mind , then could you recommend some books which deal with the issue of market abolition ?

Anyways thanks again .
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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by Celtiberian on Mon May 26, 2014 12:45 pm

Pennsylvania Dude wrote:Thanks for the answers guys . I can't call myself a socialist since I haven't done my homework  , but I'm definitely sympathetic . I'll look more into the issue of cooperatives , but your answers have somewhat satisfied my curiosity so I appreciate it

That's a respectable approach to take. It's always advisable to become well informed on matters of this magnitude before joining those actively involved with them.

Also Celtiberian , if you don't mind , then could you recommend some books which deal with the issue of market abolition ?

Certainly. The best introductory text on the economics of comprehensive socialist planning is Robin Hahnel's Of the People, By the People: The Case for a Participatory Economy (AK Press: Oakland, 2012). If you're interested in a more advanced treatise, read The Political Economy of Participatory Economics (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991) by Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel. I also recommend G. A. Cohen's Why Not Socialism? (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2009), so you can become acquainted with the ethical foundation of participatory socialism.

Anyways thanks again

You're welcome.

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"Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."
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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by HomelessArtist on Mon May 26, 2014 1:21 pm

Stick around here Pennsylvania Dude, all other sites that call themselves leftist are liberals playing pretend.

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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:48 am



I don't know why I'm posting this when I could be out cavorting at some bar , but I got nothing better to do . Most West Virginia bars are closed at dawn anyways .

So you apparently know the Gulyas Thrash Crew ( as they call themselves ) from Allentown . Damn I didn't think they'd be still around and kicking but that's good to hear . Anyhow what the hell is so wrong with hanging out in parking lots while enjoying some brews Pennsylvania Dude ? I don't know what your on about with the drugging thing , cause I never saw those fellows take drugs . As for the fighting , well that's a Hungarian tradition . I mean sure I know you Northern/Western European descended people can't understand , but us peasant Hunkies like to fight . Any Hungarian who doesn't get into a drunken brawl every so often , is a Germanized or Westernized or whatever else erized cunt . We're the Irish of Central Europe . Besides there's a lot of Puerto Ricans ( as I'm sure you know ) up in Allentown who like to act like big men , which is shit that don't fly with them . I mean it's not like the Gulyas Thrash Crew goes into their neighborhoods acting all high and mighty . It's the other way around . Last of all , since when is whistling and making catcalls at girls a form of harassment ? It's not like any of them got raped or whatever . Men have a thing called balls which means we go about expressing our desires like animals ( from time to time ) . There's nothing wrong with that and it'll never change no matter how all you soft nancies stomp your feet .

This is just more proof of why socialism is only fit for Northern/Western Europeans and Old Stock descended Colonials . Central , Southern , and Eastern Europeans are barbarian pesant warrior artisans by nature ( the same applies to White Ethnics ) . Of course there are those who adopt a Western mindset and therefore become Westernized ( aka fit for Socialism ) . Sure Capitalism sucks fucking dick , but turning into a fucking respectable Anglo Saxon type wannabe isn't the answer . You gotta stick to your roots and respectability is for Northern / Western Europeans or those with a similar mentality ( f.ex Jews ) .

Also enjoying some brews ( aka " getting drunk " ) from time to time , whistling at women , being passionate ( aka " loud " ) , and getting into fisticuffs with friends or strangers is a normal part of life for Central , Eastern , and even Southern Europeans . It's a Dago/Bohunk thing dude .

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Re: Question about Cooperatives

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:53 am




Then again sure all people can try their hand at Socialism , but it must accomodate to mentality and culture above all . Bohunk and Dago people's form of Socialism can't be the Intellectual type of Socialism . It must be the " Let's smash these Capitalist fucks and then have a pasta or gulyas/pierogi dinner " type of Socialism if you get my drift .

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