Zionism

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Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:48 pm

Why is Zionism considered reactionary?

The Jewish people have been expelled from our Holy Land and since then. We have been the most persecuted people on the planet. The Palestinians and their useful idiot allies want to destroy our way of life completely. We have attempted to negotiate with these barbarians, but they always scream "GAS THE JEWS". What do you want us to do? Be Holocausted again?
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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:54 pm

I have too many objections with your statement to even begin. How about you go into why the foundation of the modern state of Israel being fair and just to the people that lived there as well as the illegal expansion of "colonies" into the occupied territories.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:59 pm

Firstly, there has never been a Palestinian nation. The Holy Land was mostly open, so we poured in there due to the persecution from anti-semites. It might have been illegal, but when everyone wants to kill you. You sometimes have to take dramatic actions.

We follow the laws of G-D, not the laws of anti-semites.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:04 pm

I doubt the historicity of that but let's go with it for now. If it was so barren then why would there be any need to evict farmers and schoolhouses, demolish them, and set up israeli homes?

Also, fuck that stupid cartoon.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:08 pm

Red Aegis wrote:I doubt the historicity of that but let's go with it for now. If it was so barren then why would there be any need to evict farmers and schoolhouses, demolish them, and set up israeli homes?

The land in Israel belong to JEWS. It does NOT belong to foreigners. We can do whatever we want with it. They were trespassing after all. In 1922, there were only 752,000 people in the Holy Land with a large chunk being Jewish.

What's the problem with the cartoon? It displays reality. I'm sorry, but in the real world. People sometimes are aggressive and hateful of you. You have to defend yourself. Pacifism can send you directly into a gas chamber.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:13 pm

Provide evidence in your posts if you want to make such drastic claims. What was the breakdown of that population? Who owned the land? Who lived on that land?

Just to let you know, don't ever try to pull the gas chamber on me. I had plenty of family members go through that so if you want to try to use my family's deaths for your political arguments then we will never get along. Use logical arguments and not appeals to emotion.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:18 pm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine#Demographics_in_the_Ottoman_period

G-D gave us the land. G-D'S objective immaterial laws overrules man's pseudo-law.

Red Aegis, are a Jew? If you are, what's with the self-hatred?

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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:21 pm

God doesn't exist.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:23 pm

G-D does exist.

A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and
A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
It is possible that there is a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, (by axiom S5) it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:36 pm

Saoul wrote:G-D does exist.

A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W;

Excellence has not been defined and frankly means nothing without prefacing it with criteria to judge a thing on and some other thing to compare results to. The second part means nothing without the required definition in the first.

and
A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.

That is just a statement that means nothing as well. You did not define greatness nor what you mean by "every possible world". Are you talking about parallel universes, planets, social structures? Without defining these things your "logical chain" is anything but logical.

It is possible that there is a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)

That is an assumption that you are making and arbitrarily saying fits into your vague - meaningless, actually - statements prior to this one. That is not logic or evidence. It is simply making a truth-claim without basis.

Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being exists.

"Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily . . ." That right there is proof that you don't know what those words mean. The rest is just another random assumption. No reason has been used.

Therefore, (by axiom S5) it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.

Axiom S5? Wtf is that? Did you even look at what you were copying and pasting? Anyway, that conclusion is bunk because, as I pointed out above, all the preceding sentences were either talking about undefined, vague topics or they were simple assertions that had no logical link other than that they were fabricated in apologetic intent.

In short, that was bunk.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:43 pm

Axiom S5 involves Modal Logic. Unlike you, I have studied natural theology.

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108386/jewish/Proof-of-Gds-Existence.htm

If you're a Jew, you should go to your local synagogue and talk to your rabbi ASAP. If you're a gentile, follow this:
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

This is what Muslims actually believe:
2:217 They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews
(killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The
stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me,
come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of
tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the
Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."


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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:53 pm

Saoul wrote:Axiom S5 involves Modal Logic. Unlike you, I have studied natural theology.

Unlike you, I have studied science.

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108386/jewish/Proof-of-Gds-Existence.htm

If you're a Jew, you should go to your local synagogue and talk to your rabbi ASAP. If you're a gentile, follow this:
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

That doesn't prove that god exists, not in the slightest. Why did you write that?

This is what Muslims actually believe:
2:217 They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews
(killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The
stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me,
come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of
tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the
Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."


I don't care, all religion is stupid. If you want to talk about messed up beliefs then look in your own scriptures, a man willing to murder his son, a god sending bears to kill children for being children, ect.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:57 pm

I gave you the link to read.

There is more to the world than just science. You're subscribing to an illogical worldview called "Scientism". If you only rely on science, how do you explain consciousness? Hell, how can you prove the existence of other minds? Are you a solipsist?

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Re: Zionism

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:14 pm

Just for the record I am very Anti Jewish and I firmly support the existence of your Holy Land. You know why? Cause I want all of you to go back there. If every single Jew went back to Israel and stayed there then the world would be a much better place.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Saoul wrote:I gave you the link to read.

There is more to the world than just science.


Of course there is more to the world than the utilization of the scientific method. What you are confused about is this, postulating the existence of a god is a claim that you are making about reality. It is within the bounds of science to assess based on evidence and reason. If a god exists then there must be a way to verify it independently. You cannot and have not done this. If you can then I challenge you to do so.

You're subscribing to an illogical worldview called "Scientism". If you only rely on science, how do you explain consciousness? Hell, how can you prove the existence of other minds? Are you a solipsist?

I am a materialist, there is only physical reality that makes up the Universe. As for consciousness, it is a phenomenon in which a pattern of electro-chemical exchanges becomes able to regulate the future electro-chemical exchanges. That doesn't matter though, you still haven't proved anything near to the existence of a god, which you are using as an excuse to either actively engage in or support the subjugation of the palestinian people.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Red Aegis on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Rebel Warrior 59 wrote:Just for the record I am very Anti Jewish and I firmly support the existence of your Holy Land. You know why? Cause I want all of you to go back there. If every single Jew went back to Israel and stayed there then the world would be a much better place.

Shut up dumbass.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:17 pm

Thanks I guess, Rebel Warrior 59.

Why are you anti-Jewish? I'm curious to hear your reasons.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:17 pm

Red Aegis wrote:Shut up dumbass.

Now thats a very smart reply.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:29 pm

Saoul wrote:Thanks I guess, Rebel Warrior 59.

Why are you anti-Jewish? I'm curious to hear your reasons.

Christianity wouldnt exist without your religion ( or people) and that religion has poisoned the mentality of my people ( Hungarians). Really its the whole Semitic mindset which I despise with all the monotheism, strict laws, angry gods and so forth. Its a very unhealthy mentality I think especially for non Jewish people to adopt. The second reason is that Jews have been at the very front of many other bad ideas like liberalism for example. I can go more into depth later on if you like, but for now these are the two main reasons as to why Im Anti Jewish.

In short I dont believe in killing the Jews, but I am against their presence in my people's homeland because of their bad influence. The best solution would be for you all to return to Israel. And I dont care about the whole Israeli-Palestinian thing. I just want the Jews to leave.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Saoul on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:43 pm

Red Aegis wrote:I am a materialist, there is only physical reality that makes up the Universe. As for consciousness, it is a phenomenon in which a pattern of electro-chemical exchanges becomes able to regulate the future electro-chemical exchanges. That doesn't matter though, you still haven't proved anything near to the existence of a god, which you are using as an excuse to either actively engage in or support the subjugation of the palestinian people.

Funny, materialism is a faith-based position. Even atheists like David Chalmers reject it for property dualism or neutral monism. Consciousness cannot be explained by materialism because it isn't material. The mind is more than the physical brain. How do you explain qualia? Not to mention, Leibniz's gap/mill.

"It must be confessed, moreover, that perception, and that which depends on it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is, by figures and motions, And, supposing that there were a mechanism so constructed as to think, feel and have perception, we might enter it as into a mill. And this granted, we should only find on visiting it, pieces which push one against another, but never anything by which to explain a perception. This must be sought, therefore, in the simple substance, and not in the composite or in the machine." - Leibniz

Please watch this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=gHkBM5iDmL8

Like I said, it's OUR Holy Land. Given by G-D. They are trespassers.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Celtiberian on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:57 pm

Saoul wrote:Why is Zionism considered reactionary?

Unlike many Leftists, I don't consider Zionism to be an inherently reactionary concept. Moses Hess's political philosophy, for instance, is congruent with my own left-wing nationalism. There are even aspects of Theodor Herzl's work that I find reasonable.

It is contemporary Israeli Zionism that is reactionary, and that is due to its contemptible defense of militarism and expansionism, and its utter disregard for Palestinian human rights.

The Jewish people have been expelled from our Holy Land and since then.

What do you mean by the "Jewish people" in this context? This is relevant because it's not at all clear whether the population currently residing in Israel directly descends from the lineage associated with the Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Judah, and Roman Judaea. A recent study conducted by the population geneticist Eran Elhaik (“The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses”) casts doubt upon the Zionist claim regarding the Jewish people 'returning to their ethnic homeland,' for example.

We have been the most persecuted people on the planet.

Jews clearly have a long history of being persecuted, but they nevertheless constitute one of the most successful groups today—which suggests that their persecution has subsided to a considerable extent. I mention this not in an attempt to minimize the horrendous abuse your people have suffered over the millennia, but rather to frame the conversation in a more balanced manner.

The Palestinians and their useful idiot allies want to destroy our way of life completely.

Nonsense. You cannot interpret the remarks of a few anti-Jewish Palestinian radicals as being reflective of the views espoused by the entire population.

We have attempted to negotiate with these barbarians

This approximates racism, so I advise that you be more cautious in your choice of phrases from henceforth.

but they always scream "GAS THE JEWS".

Who, aside from a few mentally deranged neo-Nazis, is 'screaming' anything of the sort?

What do you want us to do?

To obey international law by constructing a two-state settlement along the June '67 borders.

Be Holocausted again?

Let's refrain from engaging in hyperbole, shall we?

Firstly, there has never been a Palestinian nation.

This is the same sort of historical revisionism that the Boers in South African utilized in order to manufacture consent for their colonial state..

We cannot have a rational conversation on this topic if you're unwilling to accept the overwhelming consensus that the Palestinians qualify as a national entity.

The Holy Land was mostly open, so we poured in there due to the persecution from anti-semites. It might have been illegal, but when everyone wants to kill you. You sometimes have to take dramatic actions.

That sort of (il)logic can be used to justify all manner of crimes against humanity. Recall that large segments of Germany were indoctrinated by the Nazis into believing that a covert Jewish plot existed which sought to exterminate 'Aryan' people—in fact, many anti-Semites continue to believe along these lines—and that belief contributed to many of them becoming complicit in the Holocaust. Surely even if there was validity to such a claim it wouldn't justify the exploitation and/or murder of the race perceived as a threat, as that would quickly lead to bellum omnium contra omnes becoming the order of the day.

Simply put, the threat of persecution is not a legitimate excuse for engaging in persecution yourself.

We follow the laws of G-D, not the laws of anti-semites.

As this is a secular forum, appeals to "God" are not permitted in debate; you will have to defend your position using reason, logic, and/or empirical evidence. Any further references to a deity shall be deleted.

Red Aegis, are a Jew? If you are, what's with the self-hatred?

Zionist extremists frequently resort to alleging that any Jewish person critical of Israeli state policy is a "self-hating Jew." More often than not, there is no basis for the charge, but even if it were true, it still wouldn't attest to the veracity of the individual's claims.

Also, before I forget:


I'm quite certain that this image violates our forum guidelines. I will have to discuss it with the other moderators before taking action, but I think you should consider removing it regardless. (It's in very poor taste.)

Rebel Warrior 59 wrote:The second reason is that Jews have been at the very front of many other bad ideas like liberalism for example.

"Jews" such as Immanuel Kant, Voltaire, Alexander von Humboldt, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and David Hume?

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Re: Zionism

Post by DSN on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:06 pm

Oh, Lucifer... give me the strength to resist a religious debate with a Jew.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Admin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:18 pm

Why does our first and only Zionist member have to be such an irrational, reactionary twit?

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Re: Zionism

Post by Rebel Redneck 59 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:46 pm

David Ricardo, Milton Friedman, Robert Nozick, and for that matter Murray Rothbard were Jews. Setting all that aside Jews were very much given to being usurers, cheats, exploiters, in short Capitalists all through history. But to make things even more simple pretty much all political ideologies are based on values that come from Christianity ( even if in a twisted way) and since Christianity is a Jewish invention you can say that all political ideologies owe themselves to the Jews.

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Re: Zionism

Post by Celtiberian on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:03 am

Rebel Warrior 59 wrote:David Ricardo, Milton Friedman, Robert Nozick, and for that matter Murray Rothbard were Jews.

Three of these four individuals were economists—only one of which (Ricardo) contributed anything of value to the discipline—so their influence on liberal thought is virtually nonexistent. Moreover, Murray Rothbard was among the most illiberal members of the Austrian school of economics (he was a paleoconservative whose political philosophy even influences apologists for monarchism, such as Hans-Hermann Hoppe).

Setting all that aside Jews were very much given to being usurers, cheats, exploiters, in short Capitalists all through history.

Though it's undeniable that Jews have disproportionally been involved in high finance throughout history, it's largely attributable to the fact that they were prohibited from participating in most other trades and professions for majority of their time in Europe. Karl Marx, a staunch critic of these Jewish financiers, put the matter well when he wrote: "The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish money-changers out of the temple, and that the money-changers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence. The loan-mongering Jews of Europe do only on a larger and more obnoxious scale what many others do on one smaller and less significant" [“The Russian Loan” by Karl Marx (New York Tribune, January 4, 1856) in Eleanor Marx Aveling (ed.), The Eastern Question: A Reprint of Letters Written 1853-1856 Dealing with the Events of the Crimean War (London: Swan Sonnenschein & Co., 1897), p. 606].

Those who ignore the structural pressures responsible for the phenomenon and instead frame the issue as one regarding the 'congenital wickedness of the Jewish race,' or what have you, reveal nothing but their own ignorance.

But to make things even more simple pretty much all political ideologies are based on values that come from Christianity ( even if in a twisted way) and since Christianity is a Jewish invention you can say that all political ideologies owe themselves to the Jews.

By no means is every political ideology "based on values that come from Christianity." And even if one could draw parallels between Christian morality and the ethical principles which animate certain political philosophies, it wouldn't necessarily indicate a direct link. (Two individuals can come to similar conclusions through radically different means.)

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Re: Zionism

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